The fighter and the paladin pretty well ganged up on the knight & stole his stuff

[AllisterH]

Indeed.

And both of those show through pretty clearly in both Warcraft and Starcraft games.

But that doesn't change the fact that D&D was still the initial influence.

You know, I wonder if Games Workshop ever kick themselves whenever they hear about Warcraft/Starcraft and how many millions it brings in each year for Blizzard.

Man, would I ever hate to be one of the guys who said "NO" to Blizzard. Do you think they still have a job at GW?

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Here is what I think is video gamey (from my experience with Diablo II and Titan Quest. I tried out WoW, but it seemed to time-intensive to get to a interesting level, and the first "quests" were to simple to my test. Anyway, my experience is limited)
- A straight adventure plot. Little possibility to stray away or coming up with a clever plan to bypass some problems. The plot is always go to point X, where you talk to/kill Y. (No politics, intrigue, criminal investigation and so on)
1) The story is only there to get you into areas where you take monster. You can basically totally ignore what the people say to you and only notice the areas you have to go to.
2) Running through the wilderness and killing monster after monster.
3) Running through a building/underground passage and killing monster after monster.
(I separate this from the second point because I can see that buildings and lairs from enemies are monster-infested, but I am not certain that the "monster density" in the wilderness and the dungeon should be the same)
4) Hoarding mana potions and healing potions and constantly using them during combat (without taking any in-game time)
5) A very limited amount of abilities you get with your character class. Most the time, you just improve an existing ability, until you get access to a new one.
6) Limited tactics. Basically, tactics is just: When do I use special ability X, and the rest is target your enemies and click your left mouse button until they are all dead.

It should be clear that this "definition" of video-gamey is pretty much limited to the action oriented role playing games (not games like Neverwinter Nights).
Because honestly, the "other" type of roleplaying video game wouldn't bother me that much, because it is what D&D is now (naturally), except that you will often be able to "personalize" the story in a real D&D game a lot more (which is not limited by conflict resolution mechanic of the computer game)

Point 1) is not really a problem with the game rule, it is a limitation of computer games and goal of the game itself. A DM could always play his adventures like this, but most want, regardless what the game mechanics have to offer (but good mechanics for "social encounters", puzzles and traps can help a lot)
Point 5) Can be a problem, but D&D 4 doesn't seem to go that way. They are constantly implying a lot of customizability and special abilities.
2) und 3) are not a part of the game rule, but how the DM defines his world.
4) well, drinking potions costs time in D&D, and is often enough a suboptimal choice during combat. You don't really horde them. (You horde Wands of CLW, but they are not used during the combat.)
6) D&D is pretty tactic rich, and I think that will not change in 4th edition. Sure, in the end you still just beat on your enemy with all you got, but movement and positioning stays important.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Moderator/

Lets keep the thread focussed on fighters/paladins/knights and leave discussion of WoW etc. for a different thread from now on, OK?

Thanks

 

[Geron Raveneye]

I've got to say, seeing this thread title made me check out the Knight again, and ponder on ripping its challenges out along with the "Shield Ally" abilities, and patch them into the extended Paladin from Book of Hallowed Might while taking out the spellcasting of the class. That way, there would a be REAL role difference between the Paladin and the Cleric, and the martial cleric could finally be the Holy Warrior the class was always supposed to be, and the Paladin could stand on its own feet without hanging on to some church's skirt anymore.

 

[Klaus]

Re: Ftr/Pal/Kni

I wonder if the Paladin's oft-debated Code of Conduct will be influenced by the clear-cut Knight Code of Conduct (no attack on flat-footed foes, no flanking bonus, etc).

 

[RPG_Tweaker]

...is akin to having a mana bar) from a video game.

Mana bars are yummy! ...and much more nutritious than delivered pizza.

 

[ruemere]

May I point out one, rather obvious to me, difference between WoW and D20?

D20 environment is designed and played by a living, flexible intelligence, capable of feats WoW mechanics and engine is not.

So, Taunt as a simple class specific binary special ability is a complete failure to me. While creatively insulting speech made by a player character, supported by successful skill check made versus relevant opponent's attribute, is fine.

The first case is an example of a character disintegrating into a jumble of assorted game mechanics. The second case, of a roleplaying action where the system is there only to determine a success.

Hopefully, 4e designers will take note of that distinction.

regards,
Ruemere

 

[Merlion]

Oh, I get that bards, rangers, druids, and paladins are probably more archetypal than the D&D cleric. However, the cleric is what it is because nothing else can fit the niche. .)

I disagree. Both that nothing else could fill the "niches" a Cleric does...or that anything even needs too. I have personally never understood the supposed need for a heavy duty healer class. And concept wise, there is little basis for the "priest" concept as its own class...its more of a cultural role.

But I've always seen them as a bit of 'specialized roles within a more general specialty' type of deals. Part of it is that they cross 'role boundaries' a bit, so there is certainly reason for disagreement here. Paladins tank and heal. Druids in D&D can tank, heal, damage, or battlefield control. Rangers do skill-y stuff and can do the 'main fighter' role. Bards are battlefield controllers and skill specialists.

See, I dont really give a flying fig about role boundries. I hope that the "role" thing in 4e stays metagame jargon and doesnt take over the game...and I'm more interested in what the classes are as a whole than just their mechanical role in combat.
And thats a big part of why I want those classes to stay as classes. One of the 4 central classes could fill the mechanical role of pretty much any/all of them...but not their conceptual roles/archtypes.

 

[frankthedm]

To me it sounds like

The fighter won't be a slowed down by the armor he is encouraged to wear.

The paladin will be a glowing beacon of holyness that also functions as a bull's eye to the evil and monstrous.

Kind of annoying since I do kinda feel preventing foes from outmanuvering the tanks & hitting the soft underbelly of the party was tacticaly fun.

 

[Plane Sailing]

Re: Ftr/Pal/Kni

I wonder if the Paladin's oft-debated Code of Conduct will be influenced by the clear-cut Knight Code of Conduct (no attack on flat-footed foes, no flanking bonus, etc).

That would be a positive, simple reinforcement for 'honourable warrior' aspect of paladins, and short circuit all the nebulous 'agree with your DM exactly what the code means in this campaign' problem that people often seem to stumble across.