D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[FrogReaver]

If your fighter isn't using precision you are doing it wrong...

Ok, this is how I see it. Let's do a little white room theory crafting.

Assumptions:

• Both archer fighter and archer ranger start with the same combat stats.
• Both take sharpshooter at 4th and the fighter takes an ASI at 6th so he's got +1 to hit and damage
• 6th level
• an adventuring day that is 20 rounds long and includes two short rests.
• Ranger takes Colossus Slayer for simplicity
• Fighter is Battlemaster

So, 20 rounds of combat means the fighter gets 46 attacks to the ranger's 40. Presuming a 60% hit rate (or thereabouts) the fighter hits 28 times (rounding up) and the ranger hits 24 times. Ok, so our fighter deals an extra 12d8 damage (again assuming Battlemaster) +28 for an average of 82 points of damage over an above weapon and sharpshooter. The ranger is likely going to get Colossus Slayer 60% of the time, for an additional 14d8 damage (14 rounds of CS out of 20), plus he's 6 hours of Hunter's Mark to play with meaning he's likely going to get that about 80% of the time for an additional 19d8 points of damage. He averages 33d8 points of damage over and above weapon and sharpshooter for 148 points of additional damage.

IOW, our 6th level ranger is dealing about 30% more damage over the BEST DAY that a fighter can have.

So, how is the fighter catching up that 40 points of damage? Note, that while the fighter does have +1 to hit, the ranger is getting advantage on attacks in the first round of combat most of the time. That's mostly a wash, if not an advantage to the ranger since he can use Sharpshooter in the first round of combat most of the time without any real penalty nor needing any outside help.

This is why I'm not seeing how fighters are even remotely in the same league as other classes. And it shouldn't be like that. Fighters give up any out of combat abilities - no tracking bonuses, no movement bonuses, no spells, nothing. Fighters should be the clear winner in any DPR competition. At the absolute best, they get to equal another class.

And if it takes 11 levels just to finally pull ahead, then something is seriously wrong.

 

[smbakeresq]

If your fighter isn't using precision you are doing it wrong...

First off, for the numbers guys if you use precision make them all hits. No one at the table uses precision until they have a very good idea of what AC they are against and what they need to hit it. If they need less than about +4 more to hit they will use precision, when its gets into the +6 or more they wont try it. It will make the math a little easier also. If you are an archer of course you would use precision also. I never use it because in most groups you need more front-line then archer, which means more things like trip and riposte, buts that not relevant in this example.

Second, like I said before, the fighter needs to out DPM the other martial classes by far more than it currently does since the other martial chassis offer more things and more entertaining things to do. It needs to be like %15-25 more considering its supposed to be the classes hook. Or if the fighter had abilities that handed out more conditions like proned, restrained or stunned.

 

[smbakeresq]

Adding to the brainstorming:
1. Opt-out of feats, but allow the Fighter's bonus ASIs to be used for feats (feats become a fighter class feature).
2. Push out extra attack for non-fighters by one or more levels, possibly all the way to 11th, so the fighter just plain always gets more Extra attacks. Reduce cantrip scaling, if necessary, to match.
3. Sort better maneuvers into higher 'level' and add additional superior maneuvers at high level.
4. Extra Attack adds to your reactions available to make OAs and other off-turn combat maneuvers, including weapon-combat feats/styles that use reactions.
5. Fighters get proficiency bonus (based on fighter level only) to non-proficient saves vs Fear, expands to include charm at higher level.
6. Fighters who do not cast spells or gain magical abilities (whether through sub-class choice, feats or MCing) get proficiency bonus (based on fighter level only) to saves vs magic.
7. The Champion gains proficiency in all non-proficient saves (based only on fighter level), and, at higher level, actual Magic Resistance so long as it gains no magical abilities (from MCing or feats).
8. Indomitable is an auto-save, and recovered per short rest.
9. Champion gains a bonus HD, only for purposes of available HD for healing & recovery thereof, not for total hps, at 3rd level, and another for each 3 levels thereafter.

This is thinking along the right lines. The big one for me is 2, the fighter should always get more attacks. I also like the idea of getting more OA then any other class.

 

[Tony Vargas]

This is thinking along the right lines. The big one for me is 2, the fighter should always get more attacks. I also like the idea of getting more OA then any other class.

Yes. Often when a class is identified as a a problem, the real problem may actually be in other class designs...

...but it's always harder to sell a nerf to several classes than a power-up to one. Just another reason we tend to get power creep.

 

[FrogReaver]

Is this supposed to be a counterpoint to Hussars bad analysis by leaving out pr vision attack ?

First off, for the numbers guys if you use precision make them all hits. No one at the table uses precision until they have a very good idea of what AC they are against and what they need to hit it. If they need less than about +4 more to hit they will use precision, when its gets into the +6 or more they wont try it. It will make the math a little easier also. If you are an archer of course you would use precision also. I never use it because in most groups you need more front-line then archer, which means more things like trip and riposte, buts that not relevant in this example.

Second, like I said before, the fighter needs to out DPM the other martial classes by far more than it currently does since the other martial chassis offer more things and more entertaining things to do. It needs to be like %15-25 more considering its supposed to be the classes hook. Or if the fighter had abilities that handed out more conditions like proned, restrained or stunned.

 

[smbakeresq]

Is this supposed to be a counterpoint to Hussars bad analysis by leaving out pr vision attack ?

Not at all. The point of the thread is the fighter chassis gets a small increase in damage and an few feats that in no way makes it competitive with what other martial classes get in total.


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[Tony Vargas]

Regardless of whether the bias in the analysis of the 6th level fighter vs ranger slants it towards doing 40 points less or 60 points more over 20 rounds of combat (OMG! +/- 2-3 points of DPR!), it's worth noting that said 6th level fighter bonus ASI is assumed to be spent on combat to get there.

Was it used to address...?

My Fighter can't do much in the Exploration pillar -

No.

My Fighter can't do much in the Social pillar -

No.

My Non AC defences are bad

No, no, no, they're SAVES, but, still - No.

No, in both analyses, the Fighter's vaunted 6th level bonus ASI is used to address:

Other classes are out damaging the Fighter -

'Fraid the Fickle Fighter Feat Fallacy Fares Fairly well, un-Fortunately...

 

[Stalker0]

Something I was considering for the Fighter for my game, mainly because I focus on much fewer encounters per day than standard, but didn't want to shake up the fighter too much.

Effectively this gives the fighter a little more "per day burst" than his normal "steady as she goes" motiff.

Hidden Reserve
At 3rd level, a fighter learns to dig deep when faced with the greatest challenges. The fighter may use either the Second Wind (requiring no bonus action) or Action Surge ability. The normal restrictions for those abilities apply. This ability is regained after a long rest.

At 9th level, a fighter can choose to use his hidden reserve to automatically roll a 20 on any saving throw that they have failed.

 

[smbakeresq]

Yes. Often when a class is identified as a a problem, the real problem may actually be in other class designs...

...but it's always harder to sell a nerf to several classes than a power-up to one. Just another reason we tend to get power creep.

It is. Its quite clear the fighter was designed first, then the other marital classes, then they never went back to the fighter and brought it inline with the others.

I wonder if giving the fight chassis the extra attacks at every 4 levels would close the gap, along with save bonuses like Remarkable Athlete does to all non proficient saves.

 

[FrogReaver]

Not at all. The point of the thread is the fighter chassis gets a small increase in damage and an few feats that in no way makes it competitive with what other martial classes get in total.


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The point of my reply was hussars flawed analysis. If you agree that he needs to include precision then just say so. Or if not then explain why. There's no need to jump up and make points based on wrong assumptions that have nothing to do with what I actually said. Please understand how annoying that is.