D&D 5E The Fighter Extra Feat Fallacy

[FrogReaver]

I don't think the bar is that high:

The Rogue gets advantage so more likely to hit than the fighter using precision attack and GWM or SS.

The die isn't taken away so much transfered to damage, a good use of it. With this even a 3rd level Rogue is matching the damage GWM or SS can do. Once the Rogue hits 5th, he's exceeding that damage.

The bonus action is spent, which may or may not impact the fighter, based on build. Even that once the sneak attack is 5th level+ is likely worth it. Allowing a mid-high level Rogue to sneak attack twice in a round is pretty hefty.



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1. How's the rogue getting advantage?
2. The die is taken away. To let the rogue attack it requires 3 resources to be expended. One of your attacks, one of your bonus action attacks and a superiority dice. (In other words you could have made 2 attacks and got an extra use of precision attack if you didn't use commander's strike).

Yes, a dual wield rogue at level 3-4 does slightly more damage than a SS fighter at that level. It doesn't stay that way for long. By level 6 the rogues DPR is laughable in comparison.

I've been doing most of my calculations for level 6.

AC | Fighter | Rogue DPR
11 | 41.559375 | 20.46375
12 | 38.878125 | 19.68
13 | 36.196875 | 18.84375
14 | 33.515625 | 17.955
15 | 30.834375 | 17.01375
16 | 28.153125 | 16.02
17 | 25.471875 | 14.97375
18 | 22.790625 | 13.875
19 | 20.109375 | 12.72375
20 | 17.428125 | 11.52

At level 6 the rogue doesn't even keep up with 2 fighter attacks, let alone sacrificing a precision dice for commanders strike. I can redo the rogues damage value for advantage once I learn how he's getting it.

 

[Mort]

1. How's the rogue getting advantage?
2. The die is taken away. To let the rogue attack it requires 3 resources to be expended. One of your attacks, one of your bonus action attacks and a superiority dice. (In other words you could have made 2 attacks and got an extra use of precision attack if you didn't use commander's strike).

Yes, a dual wield rogue at level 3-4 does slightly more damage than a SS fighter at that level. It doesn't stay that way for long. By level 6 the rogues DPR is laughable in comparison.

I've been doing most of my calculations for level 6.

AC | Fighter | Rogue DPR
11 | 41.559375 | 20.46375
12 | 38.878125 | 19.68
13 | 36.196875 | 18.84375
14 | 33.515625 | 17.955
15 | 30.834375 | 17.01375
16 | 28.153125 | 16.02
17 | 25.471875 | 14.97375
18 | 22.790625 | 13.875
19 | 20.109375 | 12.72375
20 | 17.428125 | 11.52

At level 6 the rogue doesn't even keep up with 2 fighter attacks, let alone sacrificing a precision dice for commanders strike. I can redo the rogues damage value for advantage once I learn how he's getting it.

Hmm, being away from the book I somehow thought commanders strike gave advantage to the attacker, that's apparently not the case - though it REALLY should. That does impact the utility quite a bit.

In your analysis, are you giving up both fighter attacks for the commander's strike? The fighter doesn't have to, he can attack once AND allow the Rogue to attack as well.

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[FrogReaver]

Hmm, being away from the book I somehow thought commanders strike gave advantage to the attacker, that's apparently not the case - though it REALLY should. That does impact the utility quite a bit.

In your analysis, are you giving up both fighter attacks for the commander's strike? The fighter doesn't have to, he can attack once AND allow the Rogue to attack as well.

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Commanders strike requires the Fighters bonus action and my fighter has a bonus action attack. That's 2 attacks.

 

[Stalker0]

Commanders strike requires the Fighters bonus action and my fighter has a bonus action attack. That's 2 attacks.

Where is the bonus action attack coming from? TWF? Of course a TWF fighter wouldn't use Commander's strike. Ideally its going to be used by a fighter less optimized for damage and more optimized for defense or even just other pillars.

 

[Pauln6]

Commanders strike requires the Fighters bonus action and my fighter has a bonus action attack. That's 2 attacks.

Don't bonus action fighter attacks tend to inflict lower damage? The fighter may also not be close enough to use his attacks to inflict damage or may have no prospects to thin the herd while the rogue might. The point here is that there are SOME circumstances in which the fighter can increase his damage output by proxy. Not everyone likes helping other PCs to inflict damage, since they perceive as not 'their' damage but play styles vary.

 

[FrogReaver]

Where is the bonus action attack coming from? TWF? Of course a TWF fighter wouldn't use Commander's strike. Ideally its going to be used by a fighter less optimized for damage and more optimized for defense or even just other pillars.

Crossbow expertise

 

[FrogReaver]

Don't bonus action fighter attacks tend to inflict lower damage? The fighter may also not be close enough to use his attacks to inflict damage or may have no prospects to thin the herd while the rogue might. The point here is that there are SOME circumstances in which the fighter can increase his damage output by proxy. Not everyone likes helping other PCs to inflict damage, since they perceive as not 'their' damage but play styles vary.

No. they use sharpshooter for high damage and use archery style and precision attack to counter the -5 To hit.

 

[Pauln6]

That qualifies as SOME circumstances though doesn't it? Not every fighter fits that bill. Your fighter might also run out of ammo, or have it destroyed, or be disarmed, or be facing a foe with a high AC and cover from missiles, or be in a situation where the rogue has advantage and the fighter doesn't.

None of the fighters in our group use that combination and our only archer is currently an eldritch knight, who might consider swapping to an arcane archer once that option becomes available, I suppose. So, while your point is that there are SOME circumstances in which the Rogue's damage will be similar to the fighters, there will be others where this is a viable or superior tactic.

 

[Stalker0]

Commander's Strike is not a maneuver you might spam like precision strike, but it has solid uses. A few examples:

1) Your fighter is not as optimized for damage compared to another character (Paladin, Rogue, maybe a Barb). Maybe for example of those characters took GWM/SS and your character did not. This is an example when "spamming" CS might work.

2) Your in a situation where even though your damage is normally amazing...in this situation its not. Example, you got hit with a ray of exhaustion or some disadvantage whammy (maybe a slow spell). Or the monster is vulnerable to radiant damage so your paladin buddy is looking really good right now. The rogue has a killer use of poison, your archer has an arrow of slaying ready to go...etc.

3) You aren't in a position to make an attack.


So I think the maneuver has plenty of uses. I would have loved to see it use Int in some way (just to give a fighter who wants to use INT some reason to have the stat). But its not weak imo.

 

[FrogReaver]

Commander's Strike is not a maneuver you might spam like precision strike, but it has solid uses. A few examples:

1) Your fighter is not as optimized for damage compared to another character (Paladin, Rogue, maybe a Barb). Maybe for example of those characters took GWM/SS and your character did not. This is an example when "spamming" CS might work.

2) Your in a situation where even though your damage is normally amazing...in this situation its not. Example, you got hit with a ray of exhaustion or some disadvantage whammy (maybe a slow spell). Or the monster is vulnerable to radiant damage so your paladin buddy is looking really good right now. The rogue has a killer use of poison, your archer has an arrow of slaying ready to go...etc.

3) You aren't in a position to make an attack.


So I think the maneuver has plenty of uses. I would have loved to see it use Int in some way (just to give a fighter who wants to use INT some reason to have the stat). But its not weak imo.

Of course it has it's uses. Discounting something as inferior doesn't mean it is never situationally better. Saying it's inferior to the best option doesn't even mean it isn't good.

Please remember the context that commander's strike got introduced into the discussion. The suggestion was that it was better than precision attack.

It's funny that Commander's Strike is called out as a bad choice.
In a group with a rogue, it's probably the single most devastating option you can take. Why turn a fighter's miss into a hit when you can double up on sneak attack with an extra die tossed in for benefit?...

Then it was suggested that commander's strike would be better with a level 5 or 7 rogue.

Still a good option but it will likely need to be 5-7 levels of rogue minimum to equal the opportunity lost from using the option in the first place...

Saying it has situational uses and is better than precision on low damage fighter builds, while true misses the point. It's simply not better in general than precision attack on an optimized fighter unless you have a nearly max level rogue.