D&D 5E The Fighter/Martial Problem (In Depth Ponderings)

[Oofta]

I already stated officially and unofficially said class or subclass doesnt exist.

Not because the game can't handle it but that the IP holders have a light and there isn't enough money in it for 3PP.

It's not like WOTC didn't try. They UAed the Brute fighter subclass. It just outshined the Champion and thus would pull away from the PHB.

The WOTC of 2005 or 2010 would have created that subclass.

The WOTC of 2022 was on milking mode on half baked products.

I had a longer response, but it doesn't matter. We have the game we have in large part to the biggest surveys ever done for a TTRPG and things like the brute didn't make the cut. You have your opinion, it's no more important than anyone else's.

I'm going back to ignoring this because it never, ever, changes.

 

[Minigiant]

bloat
: one that is bloated
: unwarranted or excessive growth or enlargement
bureaucratic bloat
: digestive disturbance of ruminant animals and especially cattle marked by accumulation of gas in one or more stomach compartments

Bloat is the excessive. More than what is needed that simply make it bigger.

For example, the wizard of the PHB has 8 subclasses. Is it bloat to say that every other class gets 8 official subclasses?

Some say Bard, Warlock, Sorcerer, and Paladin aren't needed. By they are Charisma classes. Is it bloat to include a Charisma class.

There is no Constitution class in 5e. Including one wouldn't be unwarranted because there is a class for every other ability score. Including one would not be excessive because there are multiple classes for stomach ability scores. So would that be bloat?

Is having both orcs and hobgoblins bloat?

Then when you get to martial stuff you can go a long way before you get to "unwarranted".

Technically you can get very far before you get to the unwarranted or excessive stage in D&D.

 

[Micah Sweet]

no I think Bloat is when you have a lot of stuff . Now the more stuff you have the more people you have that don't want portions of it. But a lot of people don't want say Druids, or Bards but I don't think they've ever been defined as bloat.

Hence my supposition that you meant anything past the core books.

 

[CreamCloud0]

For example, the wizard of the PHB has 8 subclasses.

personally i feel like those 8 spell school subclasses were themselves bloat in a sense, taking up excessive space while offering relatively little unique content/playstyles between themselves,

like, the first feature of all of them being the same 'X savant' feature altered to their respective spell school, you could've put them all into a single subclass where you pick your favoured and banned schools and done something similar to the totem barbarian route where you get to pick from the list of your favoured schools boons at apropriate levels,

that one 'specialist' subclass alongside, say, order of scribes and war magic would've provided way more meaningful choices in 3 subclasses than the all of the 8 PHB 'spell school' subclasses do,

 

[Crimson Longinus]

personally i feel like those 8 spell school subclasses were themselves bloat in a sense, taking up excessive space while offering relatively little unique content/playstyles between themselves,

like, the first feature of all of them being the same 'X savant' feature altered to their respective spell school, you could've put them all into a single subclass where you pick your favoured and banned schools and done something similar to the totem barbarian route where you get to pick from the list of your favoured schools boons at apropriate levels,

that one 'specialist' subclass alongside, say, order of scribes and war magic would've provided way more meaningful choices in 3 subclasses than the all of the 8 PHB 'spell school' subclasses do,

Yes, absolutely. Totem Barbarian is my favourite subclass in the game, and I wish more subclasses were designed along similar lines, as then we would be able to cover more ground without having million weirdly specific subclasses.

(An yeah, hobgoblins are just disciplined orcs.)

 

[Minigiant]

But there lies the bias.

A new martial class is bloat.
A new martial subclass is bloat.
A martial subsystem is bloat.

But wizard gets 8 subclasses, clerics get 7, and a whole chunk of the PHB is dedicated to their spells.

 

[FrogReaver]

But there lies the bias.

A new martial class is bloat.
A new martial subclass is bloat.
A martial subsystem is bloat.

But wizard gets 8 subclasses, clerics get 7, and a whole chunk of the PHB is dedicated to their spells.

New spells are considered bloat as well.

 

[Minigiant]

New spells are considered bloat as well.

Because the base amount of spells is so numerous.

 

[FrogReaver]

Because the base amount of spells is so numerous.

This seems completely contradictory to what you were saying just before.

 

[Minigiant]

This seems completely contradictory to what you were saying just before.

Not at all.

There are so many base spells in the core book That additions automatically become bloat because there's no room for the spells to go and they end up entering unwarranted space.

Basically the bias towards magic caused this core system to have so much spells that there was nowhere to go but bloat.

The "new spells" are already in the game. That's the bias.