DDAL The Forgotten Realms eats Spelljammer before it even finishes digesting Radiant Citadel!

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
Do they define gods in Eberron as you describe, or are you making an assumption?
I am basically using Keith Baker's stance on this subject word for word. You know, the creator of the setting. So, I'm definitely not just "making an assumption".

(Sorry, I tried to find the specific article from him that I'm thinking of, but I can't seem to find it.)
Also, clearly the issue is how they're described in the books, which seems to be an issue for some. Unless they change the text, your semantics solutions aren't going to cut it.
That would require another book or errata. And this is such an obscure question that I understand why they wouldn't include it in Rising from the Last War, there was other stuff that needed to fill up the book and it was already the longest non-Core book in 5e.
 

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I am basically using Keith Baker's stance on this subject word for word. You know, the creator of the setting. So, I'm definitely not just "making an assumption".

(Sorry, I tried to find the specific article from him that I'm thinking of, but I can't seem to find it.)

That would require another book or errata. And this is such an obscure question that I understand why they wouldn't include it in Rising from the Last War, there was other stuff that needed to fill up the book and it was already the longest non-Core book in 5e.
If that's what Keith says, fair enough (although designer interviews to convey important information always rubs me the wrong way). The books say what they say though, and that's what we have to work with "officially". I can totally see the point of view that has a problem here, even if it doesn't particularly matter to me personally.
 

AcererakTriple6

Autistic DM (he/him)
But, according to what is ACTUALLY WRITTEN about these beings, you would be factually wrong. Again, there's no doubt here. It's right there in the first lines of the various Deities books that have been written for Forgotten Realms or for Greyhawk since day 1. These are gods. Full stop. A god is a powerful celestial/fiend that can make worlds. That's exactly what a god IS. Claiming that Tiamat is not a god or Lolth is not a god is flat earth territory. It's just factually wrong.

Now, in your game? Go right ahead. In my game, I treat the whole thing VERY differently than what the books say. But, we're talking about what the books ACTUALLY tell you. And there's no doubt here. These are gods.

Which is why you get problems when different settings try to change the definitions. The settings are largely incompatible that way and you wind up with these bizarre situations where something is both a god and not a god depending on which mountaintop the being is standing on.
ACTUALLY WRITTEN? Where? Are you only including official sources? Because according to kanon, Eberron would not consider the FR pantheon to actually be gods, just like they don't consider the Dreaming Dark, Progenitor Dragons, or Demon Overlords to be gods. That's not written in any official books, but Keith Baker, the creator of Eberron, has confirmed it to be true.

And, I don't think having different settings' definitions of gods being incompatible is a bad thing. On Earth, we certainly don't agree on the definition. So reflecting that in different settings makes sense, even if they're in the same multiverse.
Oh, absolutely. Yes, I agree. That's how it's set up. That's how it has been set up in D&D since Planescape (and probably before). These beings are unique and singular. Which would be fine, except that it's a bit more than your Greece/Rome example because both Greece and Rome had no problems calling these being gods. It wasn't that Zeus suddenly stopped being a god just because he was called Jupiter.

But that's the problem in D&D. In D&D, Zeus stops being a god depending on which setting you want to plonk him in, but, he's supposed to be exactly the same individual. So, you wind up with quantum deities that are both divine and not-divine at the same time.
. . . If the entities (or their religions) differ from world to world due to how they're worshipped there, even though a singular entity does exist, that isn't at conflict with them being "divine". They can be "divine" without being gods, and them being considered gods in one setting and not in another is just due to the different definitions of the word in the different settings.

I really don't see a problem here. There are entities that people in the Forgotten Realms consider "gods" that people in Eberron would refuse to worship. There are "gods" in Eberron that people in the Forgotten Realms would refuse to worship because you can't actually meet them in order to prove that they exist. I don't see how that's a problem. That just seems like an interesting conflict between settings that could make for a cool debate between two clerics from different settings.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
Most if not all of the Candlekeep Mysteries adventures do specify a Forgotten Realms location (not to say you couldn't easily relocate them). And in 2020 there was Icewind Dale: Rime of the Frostmaiden.
Icewind Dale came out 2 years ago. Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel also specifies Forgotten Realms locations for most of the Adventures (occasionally Greyhawk or Eberron instead, and Mystarra and Ravenloft once each). That doesn't make Journey's a FR book.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
There are 17 WotC modules. I'm not counting Call to the Netherdeep, because that's not really WotC, nor the Rick and Morty one.

5 are not set in Forgotten Realms and 12 are. It's fairly safe to say that Forgotten Realms is the default setting for 5e.
Each of which is easily removed from the FR.

WotC has always insisted on a "multiverse" default Setting, and that is reflected in the product line.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
I think someone at WotC thinks it would be easier if they only had to produce content for one campaign setting, and that while demand for other settings exists, they'd rather have an established multiverse akin to their MtG line, and can then churn out content for all of them at once.
I mean, yes. This has been their explicit plan for nigh a decade now.
 

Each of which is easily removed from the FR.

WotC has always insisted on a "multiverse" default Setting, and that is reflected in the product line.
They have insisted on the Multiverse, but the product line has heavily reflected a Realms-centric philosophy. They may be trying to avert that recently, but very recently.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
They have insisted on the Multiverse, but the product line has heavily reflected a Realms-centric philosophy. They may be trying to avert that recently, but very recently.
2018 isn't that recent anymore. But the FR is the go to in broad strokes not because it us the default Setting, but rather the Median Setting. Using the FR allows them to put out material that fits generic D&D worlds, which works becamost people homebrew, and those that don't mostly use generic Settongs like FR. Dragonlance, Greyhawk, or Exandria.
 

jasper

Rotten DM
These are the official books of Adventure League.
The following books can be used to create your pc. Players Handbook, Fizban’s Treasury of Dragons, Mordenkainen Presents: Monsters of the Multiverse, Spelljammer Adventurers in Space, Sword Coast Adventure’s Guide, Tasha’s Cauldron of Everything, The Wild Beyond Witchlight, Xanathar’s Guide to Everything, Elemental Evil Player’s Companion, Locathah from Locathah Rising, and other selected adventures.
I just finished running the first chapter of Radiant Citadel about an hour ago with 4 players. And Tomorrow will be running Spelljammer Academny. If the Realms are the kitchen sink of the game, AL is the kitchen floor.
 

Icewind Dale came out 2 years ago. Journeys Through the Radiant Citadel also specifies Forgotten Realms locations for most of the Adventures (occasionally Greyhawk or Eberron instead, and Mystarra and Ravenloft once each). That doesn't make Journey's a FR book.
All Candlekeep Mysteries start in Candlekeep. Which last time I checked, is in the FR. Whilst you can relocate them, the book includes no specific suggestions about doing so. It is undoubtably an FR book.

All of Radiant Citadel Adventures start in the Radiant Citadel by default, with relocation suggestions. It is undoubtably not an FR book.
 

The introductory Spelljammer adventures are set in FR I believe. I have a feeling that the intent is to have spelljammer AL modules that are compatible with the Forgotten Realms Adventurer's League campaign but that leave Realmspace. Later campaigns will introduce discovery of another setting as part of the campaign and after that, that setting (and characters from it) will be compatible with the FR AL campaigns. (As spelljamming now provides an in-game reason for characters to be able to move between settings.)
 


Synthil

Explorer
They aren't gods. At least, they wouldn't be considered gods in Eberron (and if I were to meet Tyr or Auril in real life, I wouldn't consider them gods, either). They're just powerful celestials/fiends that have powerful enough magic to make worlds.
Either they are, or they are not gods. Your solution keeps the themes of Eberron intact. But now you just have the same problem in reverse, with Eberron themes bleeding into the Forgotten Realms.

That's what I meant with the multiverse approach muddling the individual settings.

I'm pretty sure that there is just one Demogorgon. The settings share the Great Wheel, and if the Demogorgon is permanently killed by someone from Exandria, the Demogorgon is also dead for the Forgotten Realms.
This is so weird though, no? Is the Exandrian Vecna the same as in every other setting? If so, what if Vox Machina managed to prevent his ascension to godhood? Would the other settings have to stop using him as a god? Now you don't just have to consider the canon of one setting. You have to consider the others canon too. And what's the benefit of this default crossover approach?
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
All Candlekeep Mysteries start in Candlekeep. Which last time I checked, is in the FR. Whilst you can relocate them, the book includes no specific suggestions about doing so. It is undoubtably an FR book.

All of Radiant Citadel Adventures start in the Radiant Citadel by default, with relocation suggestions. It is undoubtably not an FR book.
Ah, that's not quite accurate. The Candlekeep section provides suggestions for moving Candlekeep to Greyhawk, Eberron, and Exandria. Nothing that actually happens in the book requires it to be on Faerun. I grant that Innis nominally a Forgotten Realms book...but Innis really a generic book.
 

DEFCON 1

Legend
Supporter
It's a multiverse, therefore there are infinite numbers of everything. There isn't just one Demogorgon across the D&D Multiverse, because if there was... I could call WotC up right now and tell them my players killed him, and they would then have to remove Demogorgon from any piece of literature in the future. But they don't do that, because there isn't. My Demogorgon isn't theirs. Just like it isn't yours.

Same way the FR gods don't exist in my Eberron, because my Eberron is my Eberron and any 'canon' is merely from the perspective of someone else. If someone else thinks that the FR gods exist in Eberron because another person made the choice in their game that they did and now they have to accept this 'canon' as their own... that's on them. I choose to not give one whit about canon because it is pointless and goes against the definition of a multiverse in the first place.

A multiverse is infinite. That means there are universes where Demogorgon has been killed and ones where he hasn't. As well as worlds where the Demogorgon is the one like in Stranger Things and not the two-headed Demon Lord. And universes where the gods of Eberron are real entities, and ones where they aren't but the people there all believe they do. And ones where people know they aren't real and instead have just personified concepts by turning them into "deities". And indeed universes where people from Eberron have Plane Shifted out of Eberron and gone to the FR and met the FR gods.

It has all been done and none of it has been done. And thus I find there to be no reason to worry or bother with it. All that concerns me is what happens at my table, the rest can go flake off as far as I care. As I said... worrying about any of this is overrated. :)
 

It's a multiverse, therefore there are infinite numbers of everything. There isn't just one Demogorgon across the D&D Multiverse, because if there was... I could call WotC up right now and tell them my players killed him, and they would then have to remove Demogorgon from any piece of literature in the future. But they don't do that, because there isn't. My Demogorgon isn't theirs. Just like it isn't yours.

Same way the FR gods don't exist in my Eberron, because my Eberron is my Eberron and any 'canon' is merely from the perspective of someone else. If someone else thinks that the FR gods exist in Eberron because another person made the choice in their game that they did and now they have to accept this 'canon' as their own... that's on them. I choose to not give one whit about canon because it is pointless and goes against the definition of a multiverse in the first place.

A multiverse is infinite. That means there are universes where Demogorgon has been killed and ones where he hasn't. As well as worlds where the Demogorgon is the one like in Stranger Things and not the two-headed Demon Lord. And universes where the gods of Eberron are real entities, and ones where they aren't but the people there all believe they do. And ones where people know they aren't real and instead have just personified concepts by turning them into "deities". And indeed universes where people from Eberron have Plane Shifted out of Eberron and gone to the FR and met the FR gods.

It has all been done and none of it has been done. And thus I find there to be no reason to worry or bother with it. All that concerns me is what happens at my table, the rest can go flake off as far as I care. As I said... worrying about any of this is overrated. :)
I understand and agree with this premise in principle, but the issue does seem to be what's in the books, not what you can or can't do at your table. Telling people they just shouldn't worry about it is unlikely to be helpful.
 

Parmandur

Book-Friend
It's a multiverse, therefore there are infinite numbers of everything. There isn't just one Demogorgon across the D&D Multiverse, because if there was... I could call WotC up right now and tell them my players killed him, and they would then have to remove Demogorgon from any piece of literature in the future. But they don't do that, because there isn't. My Demogorgon isn't theirs. Just like it isn't yours.

Same way the FR gods don't exist in my Eberron, because my Eberron is my Eberron and any 'canon' is merely from the perspective of someone else. If someone else thinks that the FR gods exist in Eberron because another person made the choice in their game that they did and now they have to accept this 'canon' as their own... that's on them. I choose to not give one whit about canon because it is pointless and goes against the definition of a multiverse in the first place.

A multiverse is infinite. That means there are universes where Demogorgon has been killed and ones where he hasn't. As well as worlds where the Demogorgon is the one like in Stranger Things and not the two-headed Demon Lord. And universes where the gods of Eberron are real entities, and ones where they aren't but the people there all believe they do. And ones where people know they aren't real and instead have just personified concepts by turning them into "deities". And indeed universes where people from Eberron have Plane Shifted out of Eberron and gone to the FR and met the FR gods.

It has all been done and none of it has been done. And thus I find there to be no reason to worry or bother with it. All that concerns me is what happens at my table, the rest can go flake off as far as I care. As I said... worrying about any of this is overrated. :)
The elegant solution they came up with in Fizban's has legs: there is a Platonic Form of Demogorgan, and other WotC IP, that allows them to instantiate in different worlds in different ways.
 

Hussar

Legend
I haven’t read Fizban’s, so I can’t really comment. But if that’s true, that’s pretty much a complete reversal of how DnD has worked in the past.

There aren’t infinite versions of these beings. At least not in the past there wasn’t. There was always only one of these beings. One Demogorgon. Full stop.

Which of course brings up all sorts of weirdness.

But to me, semantic quibbling over “it’s not a god, it’s a Power” seems somewhat pointless. Power and god are the same thing.
 

James Gasik

Legend
Supporter
It makes a little sense though. It doesn't do you much good to say "there is only one Orcus in the multiverse", when each individual DM campaign might have their own Orcus (or none at all!). What good does it to do to say "there is only one of this individual ever (like the Tarrasque once was)" if it can be killed in each individual home campaign?

So this approach says, "yes, all D&D campaigns are part of the D&D multiverse....even yours."

It's The World as Myth- everything is canon somewhere.
 

Hussar

Legend
Oh I totally agree with you. 100%. But that’s not how it’s presented in the books. You don’t have a Greyhawk Demogorgon and a Krynn Demogorgon. You just have one and only one. Same as all the other unique entities in the game. Regardless of setting, Asmodeus lives on the ninth plane of Hell. Even in settings that don’t have Hell apparently. :erm:

Which makes for some weird contradictions when going from setting to setting.
 

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