D&D General The Great Railroad Thread

[TwoSix]

I think the ideas developed on the Forge were a mixed bag. Taking this notion of the impossible thing before breakfast for example, I think you’re correct that, for many modes of play, the very premise that the GM is in complete control of the story is erroneous. However, there are other modes of play in which the GM is expected to be in control of the story, while the players are still expected to be in control of their characters. For those modes of play, a lot of the discussion of this idea was very illuminating and valuable. As with pretty much RPG models, the creator had his own biases, which affected his analysis. Doesn’t mean his analysis isn’t useful, particularly for people with similar biases.

Yes, but isn't erroneous to point out that the conventional wisdom in the 1990s, which the Forge theories were written to rebut, was that the DM should be in complete control of the story.

RPG design was pretty ossified around the turn of the century; the Forge was just one of the many responses to that engendered by the burgeoning internet and the ability to have non-local conversations around these topics.

But Edwards definitely isn't wrong to point out what was, at the time, a very common play concept.

 

[TwoSix]

I think any adventure path is a railroad. The plan is for you to finish module #1 and go on to module #2. You might deviate off the beat path some but inevitably you end up back on the path. Now that is fine if the group is motivated to pursue the mission. Personally, I don't care for fast advancement and one adventure path for an entire campaign. I don't mind a path in a campaign chosen by the players that starts and ends as part of their careers but not the end all of their careers. I'm more swords and sorcery than epic fantasy when it comes to fantasy roleplay.

I would generalize further and say that any campaign that starts with the GM having an endpoint in mind (barring a TPK) is a railroad. Lots of games are railroads. Pretty much every adventure path you purchase is a railroad.

Baldur's Gate 3, for all of its rightfully vaunted freedom (within a CRPG space), is both the platonic ideal of what an adventure path wants to be AND a railroad.

 

[payn]

I would generalize further and say that any campaign that starts with the GM having an endpoint in mind (barring a TPK) is a railroad. Lots of games are railroads. Pretty much every adventure path you purchase is a railroad.

Baldur's Gate 3, for all of its rightfully vaunted freedom (within a CRPG space), is both the platonic ideal of what an adventure path wants to be AND a railroad.

If this is true, I have no idea what not a railroad even means.

 

[AnotherGuy]

I would generalize further and say that any campaign that starts with the GM having an endpoint in mind (barring a TPK) is a railroad. Lots of games are railroads. Pretty much every adventure path you purchase is a railroad.

Baldur's Gate 3, for all of its rightfully vaunted freedom (within a CRPG space), is both the platonic ideal of what an adventure path wants to be AND a railroad.

I understand this thinking (and @pemerton made this point in one of the other threads and I do not feel he was wrong given his playstyle) but if we use the label in this way for all these games/adventures do we require further terminology, do you think, for more restrictive railroads either by design or by the GM?

 

[RealAlHazred]

If this is true, I have no idea what not a railroad even means.

Agreed. I consider there to be a difference between a Railroad and a regular road. When I take the train, I have to follow the railroad. I don't have a choice about turning off somewhere, I'm going to the destination with several specified stops along the way.

But a regular "road"... it still has "stops" and it can even do the same stops as the train, but you can always stop at any point along the way. And the grid of roads is much more varied in destinations than the grid of rails. Just having "stops" doesn't necessarily make it a Railroad -- if, as GM, I force the players to go to the "stops" I want, then it's a Railroad no matter what it looks like. It's the Quantum Ogre question. If it doesn't matter which way the players go, they will encounter the Ogre, then it's the illusion of choice.

 

[Emerikol]

The key to something being or not being a railroad is players choose and there are options. If you have one adventure, then it's a railroad right from the get go. Now, when I say one adventure, I say one single approach. A good example of not being a railroad is the Keep on the Borderlands. You can enter any cave you want and there are several plot lines. Ideally in a really great sandbox there are a bunch of NPCs with agendas. The players running afoul of these agendas can result in conflict expressed as adventure. A great sandbox is Ptolus. Tons of adventure hooks and players go and do what they want.

Just to add. Small published modules, are meant to be dropped into sandboxes as options. They aren't inherently railroads if the players take the bait and go on the adventure. After a few sessions, no more than half a dozen, the adventure is over and the players are back to choosing their next item of interest.

 

[payn]

The key to something being or not being a railroad is players choose and there are options. If you have one adventure, then it's a railroad right from the get go. Now, when I say one adventure, I say one single approach. A good example of not being a railroad is the Keep on the Borderlands. You can enter any cave you want and there are several plot lines. Ideally in a really great sandbox there are a bunch of NPCs with agendas. The players running afoul of these agendas can result in conflict expressed as adventure. A great sandbox is Ptolus. Tons of adventure hooks and players go and do what they want.

Just to add. Small published modules, are meant to be dropped into sandboxes as options. They aren't inherently railroads if the players take the bait and go on the adventure. After a few sessions, no more than half a dozen, the adventure is over and the players are back to choosing their next item of interest.

So… mini railroads instead? Are they then subways?

 

[TwoSix]

If this is true, I have no idea what not a railroad even means.

Have you never played a game where you simply start the characters in a situation and just see what happens?

 

[payn]

Have you never played a game where you simply start the characters in a situation and just see what happens?

Sure, but as soon as something is picked and fleshed out by GM it’s an instant railroad, right?

 

[Emerikol]

So… mini railroads instead? Are they then subways?

I tend to have my stuff ready or at least a good selection for the level so the players engage with what is happening in the environment. I wouldn't call them mini-railroads (or subways) unless you call turn order a mini-railroad. My players can genuinely opt out at any time and other things are going on unrelated to the adventure.