D&D General The Great Railroad Thread

[EzekielRaiden]

Do you see how time skipping or hand waving away details that you'd normally deal with can be used to railroad players now?

Critical difference here, compared to previous framing, at least as I had understood it.

Here, you're saying that these techniques can be railroading, if used in a manipulative, deceptive manner. Bull-rushing toward GM-desired things, digging in heels against GM-undesired things.

Previously, you had said these things simply were railroading. As in, if the GM ever includes any timeskip for any reason whatsoever, no matter how banal, no matter what the context, then it simply is railroading, guaranteed.

That's why you're getting so much pushback on this. The extremely mild claim "this can be used for railroading" is unobjectionable, in part because that's true of nearly anything. Situational bonuses and penalties can be used for railroading. NPC services can be used for railroading. Random (or "random") tables can be used for railroading. Frankly, if there's a mechanic out there that can't be used for railroading, I'd be pretty surprised!

The extremely strident claim "this always is railroading when used" is quite objectionable. Again: Is it railroading to timeskip over the characters sleeping for 8 uneventful hours? I asked this previously, but I don't recall what your response was (if you had in fact responded). If it is railroading to timeskip over 8 uneventful hours of sleep, why? What agency is being lost? In what way are the players being "locked in"/etc.? And if it is not railroading, then how can it be the case that timeskips are always railroading?

When I do any kind of time-skippy-type stuff, I always leave it to my players whether that actually happens. Sometimes, they agree--it's not much fun roleplaying out an otherwise uneventful camel-taxi ride across the city. Sometimes, they don't. Perhaps because they want a quiet moment to discuss. Perhaps because they're looking for something and this is a good opportunity to do it. Perhaps because they just want to hear description of the city as they move through it. Reasons vary.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So my argument depends on the idea that even the most conscientious GM isn't going to be always alert to their bias or alert to their own metagaming because perfect ability to be unbiased in your judgment just isn't a human thing. You can't always be fair which is why we defer decisions to a balanced dice or other randomization method and try or best to adhere to consistent judgments that don't depend on the circumstances.

GM is constantly making judgement on all sort of things. What to describe, what details to emphasise, what statblocks to use for enemies, what are the DCs for tasks etc. etc. There is very little of what GM does that do not include some amount of this. And then the same logic applies to all of this than to the time skips. So by your logic we now must conclude that to GM is to railroad; not only sometimes, but basically all the time, the terms are definitionally synonyms. Thus the term has become meaningless.

 

[Celebrim]

Critical difference here, compared to previous framing, at least as I had understood it.

I'm not changing my claim at all. I'm trying to get to my end destination in a series of steps where I think the final destination is too big to get people there all at once. So I'm having some degree of pushback to the idea that time skips even can be railroading. I'm trying to get people to see how they could be railroading before going to the harder step of showing how they are always railroading.

Albeit I think once we get to the general agreement that railroading is quantitative thing rather than a qualitative thing, then I will agree with you that many time skips involve very little railroading - just a normal background noise of railroading that's impossible to avoid.

But don't mistake me for changing my opinion here.

That's why you're getting so much pushback on this.

I know why I'm getting pushback. Way back at the beginning of this I outlined why I'd get push back and why people would find my claim objectionable.

Again: Is it railroading to timeskip over the characters sleeping for 8 uneventful hours? I asked this previously, but I don't recall what your response was (if you had in fact responded). If it is railroading to timeskip over 8 uneventful hours of sleep, why?

I tried to explain to you at the time that generally the timeskip, "Can we say it is morning now?" isn't about skipping the sleep. Sleep is by definition a real-world time skip because the thing simulated here "sleep" is a thing in which you aren't conscious. The time skip here in "Can we say it is morning now?" is generally about not skipping the sleep, but skipping however many hours remain in the day before sleep would generally be assumed so that we can push forward to the next event in the narrative (for whatever reason). So what I was trying to get you to see is that the sleep isn't really the relevant part of the time skip. It's the forcing players to accept sleep so that we can time skip that is relevant.

 

[Celebrim]

GM is constantly making judgement on all sort of things. What to describe, what details to emphasise, what statblocks to use for enemies, what are the DCs for tasks etc. etc. There is very little of what GM does that do not include some amount of this. And then the same logic applies to all of this than to the time skips. So by your logic we now must conclude that to GM is to railroad; not only sometimes, but basically all the time, the terms are definitionally synonyms. Thus the term has become meaningless.

Only because you are still seeing railroading as a qualitative term rather than a quantitative thing. The question isn't "Are we railroading or not?" but "How much are we railroading?" Railroading is like temperature. It has a nice zone you want to be in for comfort.

 

[Maxperson]

What if I as GM always time skipped to where I wanted the players to be but always played out in tedious and dangerous and unprofitable detail any travel to anywhere I didn't want them to be. This would be combining to different railroading techniques- hand waves and obdurium walls. Now, I'm not saying that this is good GMing, but it is a classic way to railroad while never saying "No" to the players.

Do you see how time skipping or hand waving away details that you'd normally deal with can be used to railroad players now?

"What if" and "can be used" do not equal "is." If your argument is that time skips can be used to railroad, then sure. You can use them that way. What I've seen you say, though, is that time skips are railroading no matter what, which is wrong.

There is no inherent railroading going on with time skips.

 

[Maxperson]

Holy crap! Did I just read a lengthy reply
to something I posted on enworld that included an affirmative declaration of mine and come away feeling better??

This is almost unprecedented, but I think I did! Thank you, good sir or madaam, for the pleasant exchange.

I'm sure you'll wake up soon.

 

[Maxperson]

Only because you are still seeing railroading as a qualitative term rather than a quantitative thing. The question isn't "Are we railroading or not?" but "How much are we railroading?" Railroading is like temperature. It has a nice zone you want to be in for comfort.

Yes, like me, he sees railroading as the standard RPG usage which is qualitative and not quantitative. Your personal definition is fine for you, but you are misapplying it here since it does not have any general usage around the RPG industry.

 

[soviet]

Only because you are still seeing railroading as a qualitative term rather than a quantitative thing. The question isn't "Are we railroading or not?" but "How much are we railroading?" Railroading is like temperature. It has a nice zone you want to be in for comfort.

Wait, your position is that a medium amount of railroading is necessary?

Oh, I see what you are trying to do.

Step 1, 'a medium amount of railroading is necessary'.
Step 2, 'let's broaden the definition of railroading to encompass everyday GM actions'.
Step 3, 'oh look, now railroading as a term has no meaning and so no-one can accuse me of doing anything wrong'.

 

[Celebrim]

Wait, your position is that a medium amount of railroading is necessary?

For a certain definition of "medium", yes. Without some objective measurement scale I can't put an objective finger on what that comfortable zone is, but that's not surprising because the amount of railroading that people tolerate differs from person to person. But I'm arguing that it is not only necessary but unavoidable. You can't actually make a naturalistic world that is fully detailed, governed only by predetermined rules, and where all the fiction arises solely from prior fiction because you aren't a god despite the fact that you are playing at a world. How you deal with that limitation to your ability to be fair to the players and let them determine their own path varies, and there isn't one true way. There is just different trade offs.

Step 2, 'let's broaden the definition of railroading to encompass everyday GM actions'.

That's the thing you are wrong about. Well one thing. I haven't broadened the definition of railroading at all. I've been able to agree with everyone's definition of railroading. I'm just applying that definition fairly to all actions without saying, "Well that's not railroading because I do that."

Step 3, 'oh look, now railroading as a term has no meaning and so no-one can accuse me of doing anything wrong'.

No, your argument is just what I said it would be way back at the start of this:

a) I'm a good DM.
b) Good DMs don't railroad.
c) Therefore what I do isn't railroading.
d) But, I can see that sometimes it goes too far and that's bad.
e) That going too far is what "railroading" is.

The term has meaning as I define it. In fact the way I define has vastly more meaning than the way you define. You can deny my explanation has meaning, but not only am I using your definitions I'm giving concrete examples of what railroading actually is in practice. I'm the only one here with an objective standard. And all you've got is, "Railroading is not what I do, because railroading is what bad DM's do and I'm a good DM!"

The thing that brought me to this position was listening to DMs like you argue about what was or wasn't railroading. Different DMs would always disagree over what actions constituted railroading. But actions involved were a spectrum. And different GMs I had different comfort levels and different around how they guaranteed the players got enough agency. And they always just used the term "railroading" as a slur what someone else was doing, just as you are doing now. They never heard each others arguments because it was just one big slur fight - "You railroad! I don't! I'm a good GM!"

It was boring and pointless.

The term has meaning. And you can still railroad badly, or as I prefer because it's less of a normative judgment "artlessly". And I discuss examples of artless GMing where I strongly advice GMs to avoid behaving in that way. The thing is that unless you confront your own limitations as GM and your own practices as a GM you can't improve them. If you can't be conscious of whether you are potentially railroading players with handwaves or tiny worlds or whatever practice is common place at your table, you can't really grow as a GM. You're stuck in one way truisms. You aren't looking at the craft as an art. You can just throw slurs at me and yell, "Railroader!"