the Hide skill - how do you beat it?

[billd91]

Well, not only do the rules not say that hidden characters deny a target's dex bonus, nowhere do they even imply it. In fact, a hidden character -is- visible simply by the very fact that you can see him if you make a Spot check. Hidden characters can make sneak attacks, they just aren't guaranteed one [and it takes a generous interpretation of a comment in the description of armor class for that].


Aaron

The problem with that is that the rogue IS visually undetectable to the person who fails the spot roll. And that fits the definition of invisible and so hidden characters should deny defenders their Dex bonus to AC.
That's also why invisibility is generally superior to hiding. No spot roll to worry about when trying to attack someone.

 

[Majere]

Ok basically the rogue in my game usually wins initiative, fires at opponent getting sneak damage, then use a move action to hide, around a corner, door etc.

The players actions are within the rules, but why are you giving him sneak attack damage. Unless the opponent is flatfooted the rouge shouldnt get any SA damage on his attack.

Next round monster rolls spot (fails) rogue use standard action to attack(I assume leaning from behind a door is not a move action since your feet stay put right?),

Wrong. While the chaacter may "lean around" to see what is going on, he cannot fire unless he has a line of sight from the square he is in. He could take a step out into the open to fire, but at the end of his attack he will be standing in the open and unable to hide.

getting sneak damage

Why would the rogue get SA damage ?
To attack he had to move out from his cover to get a line of sight. As he is no longer in cover he can no longer hide. The monster has had an action and is not flat footed and therefore no SA damage.

then use a move action to hide again.

Nope, he had to use his action to get a line of sight. He cant have another action with which to hide.

Cause the rules are the way they are the DM is forced to find a way around it. That's one of the things I hate about D&D the ability for the rules to be so easily abused.

The rules are only easily abused if you as a DM dont understand them and/or apply them in the correct manner.

What another problem is that basically the rest of the party become targets for the monsters cause they, the monsters, can't spot the rogue. So he is going almost entire sessions without getting hit while the rest of the party end up near death.

Sounds like selfish play, If I was one of the other players Id just kill the rogue to teach him a lesson if he was endaingering the rest of us. But thats opinion not rules.

I don't think the rogue is since he has no almost no fear of being seen or hurt in combat.

LOL
Of all the classes the rogue has the shortest life expectancy.

As for Glitterdust, yeah great spell but 10 ft radius is pretty small and you need to see the rogue first.

No you just need to suspect he is present and be willing to cast a spell in the area he might be in.



Problem here isnt the hiding rules it is that your player is cheating.

Some pertinent quotes:

"You need cover or concealment in order to attempt a Hide check."

Your rogue needs something sizable to hide behind

"To determine whether your target has cover from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that blocks line of effect or provides cover, or through a square occupied by a creature, the target has cover (+4 to AC)."

"To determine whether your target has concealment from your ranged attack, choose a corner of your square. If any line from this corner to any corner of the target’s square passes through a square or border that provides concealment, the target has concealment."

If you have cover from your enemy he has cover from you.
If you have concealment from your enemy, he has concealment from you.

"Sneak Attack:
A rogue cannot sneak attack while striking a creature with concealment"

Therefore if your rogue is hiding from the enemy (even with the sniping rules) he CANNOT use his SNEAK ATTACK. I hope that is clear, not only is your player cheating from trying to "shoot round corner", but even if he was using the sniping rules he would not get sneak attack damage.

"Sniping: If you’ve already successfully hidden at least 10 feet from your target, you can make one ranged attack, then immediately hide again. You take a –20 penalty on your Hide check to conceal yourself after the shot."

If your character wants to try the above then he must use the sniping rules and take -20 on his hide roll. And forgo hs sneak attack damage.

"If people are observing you, even casually, you can’t hide. You can run around a corner or behind cover so that you’re out of sight and then hide, but the others then know at least where you went."

The creature KNOWs where he is, it doesnt have to stand there like a moron and die. It can either move away or towards the rogue. If it moves towards the rogue then as soon as it walks around the corner the rogue has no cover and hence cant hide.

The only way a rouge could move,hide and move would be with the shoot on the run feat. And even then the enemy would not be flat footed and so there would be no sneak attack damage.

Hope that helps
Majere

 

[Aaron2]

Two major problems with this "clever" plan.

I wouldn't let a character IMC do this. I was just trying to explain the steps in (what I think is) the player's action so that we can systematically find out how the DM can prevent his player from getting away with it.

That's fine.....but that doesn't let you attack him. You need a line of sight from your square in order to do that. Since you don't leave your square, you don't have that option.

This is a very good point. My only reservation with this ruling is that "peering around a corner" is specifically mentioned as possible. If you can peer, you have line of sight, if you have line of sight you can attack.

Being hidden does not mean your opponent is denied his dexterity bonus. So no Sneak Attack after round 1. Sorry!

We are in 100% agreement. What I'm trying to do is find some workable solutions even if the DM rules (incorrectly IMNSHO) that hidden=sneak attack.


Aaron

 

[Aaron2]

The problem with that is that the rogue IS visually undetectable to the person who fails the spot roll. And that fits the definition of invisible and so hidden characters should deny defenders their Dex bonus to AC.

I make a distinction between "undetectable" and "undetected". If a character uses a move action to make another Spot check and succeeds, he detects the hidden character with his vision. Hence, the hidden character is definately visually detectable.

Should hidden characters also get +2 to hit as invisible characters do?


Aaron

 

[Shin Okada]

If he is behind total cover, he cannot have line of sight to an opponent. Thus, he must first move out to another square where he can have LOS (a move action), Shoot (a standard action), and go back to the square which provides him a total cover (a move action). So he need one standard action and 2 move actions. Usually, it is impossible for him to do this in one round. He can do simular move if he has Shot on the Run feat. But it still need a standard action and a move action.

Assume he is hiding behind total cover. Now combat is not yet begun. He takes a surprise round. Now he can take one standard action or one move action. All he can do it to move out from a total cover.

If the combat is already begun, whether he was getting total cover at the start of turn is irrelevant. Opponents are not flat-footed so has dex bonus to AC unless attacked by an invisible opponent and such. At the start of his turn, the rogue may be hiding behind a total cover. But he move out from that space and now not hiding. So when he shoots a bow, he is visible and thus the opponent has dex bonus to AC.

With sniping rule, he can keep the position he has cover (not a total cover) and continue to shoot once per round until the opponent finds him or come within 5 ft. from him. It may happen in open terrain. But very unlikely in dungeon environment. (and remember he must be within 30 ft. from the target to make a ranged sneak attack).

 

[MerakSpielman]

The players actions are within the rules, but why are you giving him sneak attack damage. Unless the opponent is flatfooted the rouge shouldnt get any SA damage on his attack.

Correct me if I'm wrong, but isn't there a rule that states that, in any combat, all combatants are considered flatfooted until their initiative is reached for the first time?


Concerning enemies losing their Dex bonus versus hidden attackers, I think the primary criteria should be whether or not the opponent knows the rogue is present and has a reasonable expectation of which direction to expect an attack.

For example, a rogue is hiding in the shadows in the corner of a room. The rest of his party is not hiding and engages an enemy in combat. The rogue spends a round or two drinking potions or something, but stays hidden. Even though it's no longer the first round of the combat, I'd allow him to make a SA against the enemy (assuming of course the enemy hasn't spotted him -- only me the DM knows that). However, once the sneak attack takes place, I won't let the rogue get another sneak attack, even if he successfully hides, because the opponent knows he is present and is watching for attacks from that area.

However, to continue the example, if the rogue were to hide after the original SA and then use a wand of dimension door to move instantly to a shadowy alcove near the ceiling, I'd allow another SA because the opponent would not expect an attack from that direction. He might even assume it's not the same rogue.

So I would not allow the "ducking behind a tree" situation because, in addition to the reasons others have stated, the opponent in question is well aware of the exact location of the rogue, full concealment or not.

 

[Shin Okada]

Concerning enemies losing their Dex bonus versus hidden attackers, I think the primary criteria should be whether or not the opponent knows the rogue is present and has a reasonable expectation of which direction to expect an attack.

I say no to this. Think about "NEW COMBATNTS" situation described in DMG P.23.

When a combat is already begun, if new combatants arrived and they already know the battle is there, the newcomers act at the beginning of the round, before any other combatants react. Still, that is not a surprise round and people already fighting do not be caught flat-footed.

 

[Aaron2]

I say no to this.

Under the section of AC it says "If you can’t react to a blow, you can’t use your Dexterity bonus to AC." So, I would rule that if a rogue attacked after the suprise round while hidden from a place where the enemy would not reasonably expect him to be, then the target would not be able to react to the blow and would lose his Dex bonus. They still wouldn't be flat-footed as you correctly stated.

I wouldn't argue with you if you don't think being hidden (even in an unexpected place) is enough to satisfy the "can't react" portion. I consider it a judgement call.


Aaron

 

[Nail]

Concerning enemies losing their Dex bonus versus hidden attackers, I think the primary criteria should be whether or not the opponent knows the rogue is present and has a reasonable expectation of which direction to expect an attack.

That's great! Wonderful house rules.

But it's not RAW, though. And really, there's no reason the rules on this can't make sense as is.

Being hidden does not deny opponents their dex bonus. Ever.

 

[Shin Okada]

I wouldn't argue with you if you don't think being hidden (even in an unexpected place) is enough to satisfy the "can't react" portion. I consider it a judgement call.


Aaron

Well, then don't argue it. I think if someone is ready for battle, that is enough and a combatants need not to know the position of all the opponents.

Of course, as a DM, you are always right. Do as you want to do. But I have one advice. When something seems to be too strong, "Do not allow anything unless the rule clearly states that can be done without any doubt" philosophy helps you often.