The "I Didn't Comment in Another Thread" Thread

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Sometimes you gotta give to have the discussion. Some folks believe that sandbox means West Marches by default. I know from experience that is not the case. However, if somebody wants to use it that way to have a nuanced discussion on a tangentially related topic, I'll play along in interest of the discussion. If defining the term is the discussion, than by all means pick a hill to die on.

It never does, but some folks cant help themselves.
Defining the term generally becomes the topic of discussion sooner or later, if only because of the new people drifting into the thread periodically and being confused by the inconsistently-defined term all over again, and then discussing the definition with each other.
 

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In Hoard of the Dragon Queen, the first 5E hardcover adventure (and not a particularly good one), the players approach the town of Greenest at the beginning of the scenario. They spot a young green dragon flying overhead. They then go to Greenest to help the defense of the town against the attack of the Cult of the Dragon.
Minor quibble. It is a blue dragon.
 

Defining the term generally becomes the topic of discussion sooner or later, if only because of the new people drifting into the thread periodically and being confused by the inconsistently-defined term all over again, and then discussing the definition with each other.
True, which is why you should put much consideration into construction of your OP. Even then, you have about 8 pages max in any discussion to have it out before it turns into a pissing contest anyway.
 

Maybe an example would help?

In Hoard of the Dragon Queen, the first 5E hardcover adventure (and not a particularly good one), the players approach the town of Greenest at the beginning of the scenario. They spot a young green dragon flying overhead. They then go to Greenest to help the defense of the town against the attack of the Cult of the Dragon.

But they're 1st level characters. You've just teased a dragon. If they are rules-lawyer types they know the dragon is far, far more potent than 1st level characters; the lowest draconic Challenge Rating is 4 or 5, if I recall correctly. If they are roleplayers invested in their characters, they know dragons are the most powerful monsters in the Forgotten Realms; they hear stories of heroes contending with dragons... and losing! But the module has no real options for if the PCs decide not to go to Greenest. The advice given is along the lines of forcing them to go to Greenest. Because if they don't the rest of the module doesn't happen.

And that's just... that's just really terrible adventure writing. "It doesn't matter what you yourself think your character would do, the module author will tell you what your character is going to do." What? Why bother going through the rest of the scenario to the final fight? (Where it is heavily stacked against the PCs and designed so that one character will die heroically. What? What if nobody is that flavor of heroic? Not considered in the module. Someone has to die. If the PCs can't make up their minds, the BBEG will pick someone based on these criteria...)

That's basically anti-Player Agency.
That reminds me of one of the scenarios that someone ran at our D&D club. The set-up was "you've slain the dragon, now you have to get its head back to town to prove that it's dead, in order to prevent the corrupt dragon-cult from taking over." We'd been sold on the time pressure of the mission from the start.

So when the DM had us passing near another town and described it being under attack by a different red dragon, he sat back and waited for the party as a whole - and my oath-of-vengeance paladin in particular - to charge in like big darn heroes and rescue the town. And was very taken aback when I said that, for the greater good, we needed to keep heading back to the city and not get distracted.

And he basically spent ten minutes trying various arguments to convince us that we absolutely had to go to the town, my favourite of which was "It's getting late, and this is the only safe place to sleep for miles."

"Yeah, but it's being attacked by a dragon. That's definitively the least safe place to go to sleep."

I forget how it ended, but we did, in the end, go to the town and find out that the dragon was an illusion cast by the evil dragon-cultists to maintain the pretence that the dragon was still alive.
 

"Wait, the dining car serves pineapple pizza and we can't find out until we show up for dinner!?! Talk about railroad to hell!"
 

I enjoy pineapple on my pizza as much as the next guy, but sometimes I see someone roll up their pizza before eating and I get in the mood for ordering a calzone. I will ofcourse respect the rules of the pizzeria if calzone is not on offer. 🙃
 


Maybe an example would help?

In Hoard of the Dragon Queen, the first 5E hardcover adventure (and not a particularly good one), the players approach the town of Greenest at the beginning of the scenario. They spot a young green dragon flying overhead. They then go to Greenest to help the defense of the town against the attack of the Cult of the Dragon.

But they're 1st level characters. You've just teased a dragon. If they are rules-lawyer types they know the dragon is far, far more potent than 1st level characters; the lowest draconic Challenge Rating is 4 or 5, if I recall correctly. If they are roleplayers invested in their characters, they know dragons are the most powerful monsters in the Forgotten Realms; they hear stories of heroes contending with dragons... and losing! But the module has no real options for if the PCs decide not to go to Greenest. The advice given is along the lines of forcing them to go to Greenest. Because if they don't the rest of the module doesn't happen.

And that's just... that's just really terrible adventure writing. "It doesn't matter what you yourself think your character would do, the module author will tell you what your character is going to do." What? Why bother going through the rest of the scenario to the final fight? (Where it is heavily stacked against the PCs and designed so that one character will die heroically. What? What if nobody is that flavor of heroic? Not considered in the module. Someone has to die. If the PCs can't make up their minds, the BBEG will pick someone based on these criteria...)

That's basically anti-Player Agency.
Well maybe in 1dnd, there will just be a cut scene that shows the PC dying heroically, and then the player will get a new pre-generated character automatically. Which is great because I bought both the Greennest and the dragon fire expansion set and it would be a waste not to get to use it.
 

My 13yo's group of 1st level characters a few months ago.

"While you're at the inn <insert rumour about Caves of Chaos>, you also hear a story about a huge red dragon battling a pair of heroes at a castle a few kingdom's over [aka tying in with the actions of their recently semi-retired 16th level characters]."

"Ooh, lets split the party and have half of them go check that out!!! A big dragon!!"
 

So, in terms of Player Agency, I have the following to say-

I just started playing Diablo 2 Resurrected on my PS5. Woah. It's a blast from the past! And in a fun way. Has it really been two decades?

Yes, Snarf, it has been.

Anyway, I know that Diablo 4 is coming out next year (maybe) and I wanted to go back to the roots. I know, I know, I should be playing Horizon Zero West, or some other amazing game with killer graphics, but it's fun, and comforting. I'll probably get around to playing Hades (roguelike) at some point too.

Oh yeah- I don't think I ever played it with the expansion pack back in the day, so I'm having fun as an assassin. Good way to blow through a few hours!
 

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