D&D 5E The Immortal Bard: 5eing up yer Minstrels

[Ahnehnois]

I would be quite happy to see a warclock-y bard with a bunch of fun magical powers but no real spells. Those powers could comprise the effects of bardic music and the spells bards have generally had. A bard could choose whether to boost allies, deboost opponents, or focus on charm and influence outside of combat.

What exactly would a Perform skill do? How would it work in play? What would the results of a failed or successful Perform check be?

Would anyone other than a Bard have a use for it? (If not, perhaps it should be a class ability and not a skill per se.)

You can't imagine an adventurer wanting to be a performing artist?
Example

A perform check either entertains or touches the audience on a sucess, or bores or even offends them on a failure. Not a really combat effective skill, but then it doesn't have to be to be worthwhile.

 

[Raith5]

Honestly I'd love to see an entirely non-magical bard. Bardic music was enchanting and magical because it was GOOD, because bards told stories, sung songs, winked at the ladies better than ANYONE in the land. They didn't do it because they were magically enhanced or so such.

I'm fine with Bards casting spells mind you, but I'd love to see entirely non-magical bards. Great place to build up the concept of non-magical morale bonuses/penalties.

I agree with this but could it be a back ground/theme or maybe through a perform skill (as suggested by others). The bard covers a lot of ground from the minstrel to the sage/loremaster.

I quite like the 4th ed bard, but maybe turning the healing down a bit would be good idea and more out of combat abilities. I quite like the mytical bard with magical skills of deception and influence.

As such Paedur the Bard in the fantastic trilogy by Michael Scott <http://www.dillonscott.com/adult_bibl/culai.htm> is a good role model. In this trilogy, the bard tell stories etc but also has fearsome abilities.

 

[Sunseeker]

I agree with this but could it be a back ground/theme or maybe through a perform skill (as suggested by others). The bard covers a lot of ground from the minstrel to the sage/loremaster.

As I've mentioned with other classes, I'd like to see a general wheel of classes, with each class getting a minimum of 3 builds that all sort of intersect with other classes. IE: One side of the bard design could favor a more druidic setup, the other perhaps a more martial one, with there being a hybrid-type in the middle.

 

[MoonSong]

Possible mundane uses for a perform skill (and what they become in a Bard's hands)

-Distract people, call the croud's attention while avoiding making them angry and go against you, unless you are awful, anybody could do it beating a propper DC, a Bard also compels them and forces a will save

-Deafen nearby casters making it harder for them to cast propperly, anybody could do it, a Bard can do it while sparing friendly casters

- Theatrics, catch a quick hold of your allies' bluff and take it further making it even more convincing, in the case of a Bard that allows for more outlandish charades.

- Apease and make people more open to suggestions, A Bard turns that into a compulsion

- Sing someoones favorite song while he/she is in the verge of recovering, there's a chance you help that person recover, A bard just outright heals the person

- There's legends of Warrior poets and some soldiers carry guitars with them, the Bard just makes magic with it

 

[TwinBahamut]

I want the Bard to be a pure musician in nature. The core aspect of their class should be musical, whether that is singing, playing an instrument, or dancing. If you ask me, the 4E Skald Bard presented in Heroes of the Feywild is the ideal. Its core class feature is the Skald's Aura, and pretty much every Daily power it has starts with the text "Until the end of the encounter, the following effect is added to your Skald's Aura." That idea, of a class that constantly generates a powerful and versatile buffing and debuffing aura, is the perfect Bard for me. The mechanics can change a bit to match how 5E will differ from 4E, but that concept needs to stay the same.

I'm not really a fan of the jack-of-all trades Bard who is some strange hybrid of rogues and spellcasters. I just don't see how such a class is supposed to be a "bard". The idea of an incredibly skilled or magical musician is strong enough of a concept on its own to build a class around.

 

[Serendipity]

For some time now, I've had this desire to see a Bard as almost a specialist wizard - a class that is all about the "singing galdur." The class would specialize in enchantment/charm, creation, and restorative spells. Almost an arcane cleric with a dash of Obviously, gets bonuses for diplomacy and other social type stuff, but also (if any morale rules are used) provides an automatic boost or other freebie to the party or whomever he or she is with.

This would free up minstrel or skald or whatever as an archetype so that you could apply it to a rogue or fighter (or whatever) for a somewhat more traditional bard.

 

[SKyOdin]

I will give another vote to the "bard as musician" idea. In my opinion, the ideal bard won't cast spells like a wizard, and probably won't even wield a blade or bow. Instead, the bard should be able to contribute to 100% of its ability using just a good singing voice and a musical instrument. Maybe we could throw in some dancing themed abilities too. Music, song, and dance already have enough inspiration in them to easily support a class (or two!).

The jack of all trades bard is simply too diluted and directionless. Half of what it does just falls into rogue/thief territory anyways.

 

[trancejeremy]

I think the version in Dragon #56 is probably the best.

Basically they cast Druid and Illusionist spells and fought well, but had no thieving abilities.

Considering that the original bards were really just Celtic court poets, it's not like there is one concept that is more "bard" than the other, they are almost all equally wrong, using a more modern meaning which D&D itself probably helped popularize.

Shakespeare for instance, is known as The Bard, because he was a great poet, not because he could sing or play instruments.

But I think the singing sort of archetype is a good one, one that should be explored, with a Bard, and maybe a Skald and Minstrel as sub-types. Or maybe Bard being a sub-class of Cleric, Skald of Fighter, Minstrel of Thief/Rogue, and Ashik for Magic-User (More of a mystical bard from Persia, which is also the root of Magi/Magic User, so sort of fits)

 

[Starfox]

The musician/entertainer aspects of the bard should be a background, not a class. Its a classic to have warrior-poets and spellsinger wizards. This need not be a class at all.

If you want to build a class like the 2E and 3E bard, add this to a rogue/spellslinger combo.

If you want a 1E bard, add this to a ranger/druid.

Of course, this presumes that backgrounds would be somewhat like 2E Kits and actually DO stuff; in this case it might include the ability to weave magic into song (making spells subtle) or give some degree of inspiration.

 

[steeldragons]

The musician/entertainer aspects of the bard should be a background, not a class. Its a classic to have warrior-poets and spellsinger wizards. This need not be a class at all.

If you want to build a class like the 2E and 3E bard, add this to a rogue/spellslinger combo.

If you want a 1E bard, add this to a ranger/druid.

Of course, this presumes that backgrounds would be somewhat like 2E Kits and actually DO stuff; in this case it might include the ability to weave magic into song (making spells subtle) or give some degree of inspiration.

I do kind of like this idea. But it goes to what a lot of people have said about other classes for 5e as well. The assassin, most notably. That instead of a class it be a "Theme" that any other class could take. And, frankly, for things like bards or assassins, I don't think this is such a bad idea.

The other thing I've seen in other threads that are being repeated here is the "I want more magic in my martial/UI want more martial in my magic" options...again, notably in the Assassin, but I've also seen it applied to Barbarian and Ranger and a couple of others.

Maybe, every class needs to have 3 options: the "more martially oriented" option, the "normal/average/base" class, and the "more magical oriented" option.

Of course, doing this for every possible "class from a first PHB" would bring us into...well...3 times as many classes to choose from. Which I do not believe is realistic. It also would seem to possibly subsum certain "base" classes into other classes....maybe incorporating the "Power Source" thing from 4e (or some version thereof), just as an organizational tool? But it's an interesting thought exercise.

Some examples springing to mind:
Source......Martial...........Base/Hybrid..........Magical
Divine........Paladin..............Cleric................Priest/Healer
Arcane...........................Swordmage..........Mage/Wizard
Primal.......Barbarian..........Shaman.............Warlock
Natural.......Ranger..............Druid................Witch/Sorcerer?
Martial.......Warlord.............Fighter................
Stealth.......Assassin.........Rogue/Thief..........Bard

Or it could just be something like this...with variants for EVERY class...
Martial................Base/Hybrid.........Magical
"Skald"....................Bard............."Minstrel"
Warlord.Cavalier.....Paladin............Cleric
Paladin....................Cleric..............Priest/Healer
Swordmage............Wizard............Sorcerer
Barbarian................Fighter............Swordmage
"Hunter"..................Ranger..........."Warden" or even Druid, itself???
Warlord...................Barbarian........Shaman
"Batman/Avenger"...Assassin.........Shadow-magic Guy/Ninja.
etc. etc.

Then you can have your "Knight in shining armor Warlords" (a more Martial Paladin, none of the "holy" bells and whistles) or your "Barbarian Horde-leading Warlords"...your "Magic-user with a sword" Swordmage and your "Fighter who casts spells" Swordmage...your "berserker crazed warrior" ("more martial fighter") or your whole "primitive culture/Conan guy" (the Barbarian "base" class), etc.

I don't see it happening but it's interesting [to me at least] to think about...
--SD