The Immortals Handbook

[Iceflame55]

I couldn't resist

I went to that thread about the Gods not needing stats, and couldn't resist adding my own two cents, respectively of course.

While I'm waiting to discover if my post is accepted as valid (I'm fairly sure it will be, as I far more polite than the ranter in question), I've got a request for anyone interested in Highlander Immortals *ducks behind the podium in case of attack by flying rotten vegatable matter* hear me out plz!

I've been fascinated by Highlander since it first came out on TV, but have never seen a set of rules I liked involving them. For example the 3.5 netbook about them adds in rules that must be used as is, or you cripple the character. There's a Unisystem conversion that is much more logical to my mind, but since Unisystem different rules set, going to take some work to use. Has anyone else got Ideas, suggestions, etc.?

The Unisystem Rules were written by Jason Vey, and I can't remember how on earth I found the book in question, so I can't post a link to it, sorry.

Again, part of my reasons for looking at other things, is to stave off Insanity until U_K can finish the first .pdf!

Thank You for even reading this!!!

 

[S'mon]

Yes I remember your players making a complete mess of the Overking assassination attempt because of stalling and prep.

Yup - Leo the Wizard & co have gone on like that, and even gotten worse - there's a disjunct between Leo's player's play-style and my GM style that's become very marked at higher levels and made the PC group far less effective than I'd have expected, with my experience of Thrin (and even of Fergus's Chaotic PCs)!

AIR Graz'zt IMC did kill both Orcus & Zuggtmoy in single combat, he was lucky not to fail a save vs Orcus's poison tail!

Re AoOs - I haven't seen them as a big problem, though the higher level you get the more Reach creatures there are. A lot of PCs & Cohorts have been killed by large Grapplers, the +4 Grapple bonus is a killer on top of high BAB & STR - they've finally started casting Free Action, which has helped a lot.

 

[S'mon]

What I would like to see:
* A list of examples of mortals competing with, besting, or killing gods in various mythologies
* Your experiences with immortal gaming, and why the mortal threat is "the greatest aspect of immortal adventuring" (asserted twice, never explained)
* Your experiences with immortal gaming, and how gods have been more than 'just monsters'.
* Perhaps even reasons (campaign-building, etc.) that stats for gods could be useful even for groups not high enough in level to directly interact with the gods

I'd like to see this too. I enjoyed the Rant but it would probably benefit from specific literary & mythical examples of humans contending with and sometimes beating gods - Diomedes vs Ares, Elric vs Xiombarg, Corum vs Arioch, Jacob vs Jhvh, etc. Examples from your experiences of D&D deity play would be nice too, especially for my ego.
My feeling is that mortals with their fleeting lives are perhaps the biggest threat to gods because mortals are often willing to take chances that no god will, to "take a shot at the big one"; whereas immortal beings who have already survived for aeons tend to be highly risk-averse and conservative, often wrapped up in layers of treaties, alliances and non-aggression pacts until they're almost impotent. I use Norse mythology as an inspiration, especially Odin with his runestaff on which all his divine treaties are signed, unbreakable - until Ragnarok, when all bonds are broken.

 

[S'mon]

Stats for gods in a sub-deity game - I think these can be useful to get a measure of relative divine power, both overall and in different areas of expertise, which is useful for judging deity interractions - eg if you have 2 "gods of magic" and one is 20 Wizard levels higher than the other then the deities will relate differently than if their stats indicate they're roughly equal. This requires lots of variation in the stats, as 1e Legends & Lore did but 3e D&DG singularly failed to. Personified stats enable deities to be used as NPCs rather than as abstract concepts - eg if you have stats for Blug the Evil One, you know whether Blug is scared of Abulin the Solar, or if he could crush Abulin like an ant, and the feel of their encounter would be very different from statted-solar encountering unstatted (thus omnipotent?) deity. Deity stats can also be used as the basis for low-level avatars. In 1e 10th level PCs could contend directly with gods; most 3e campaigns expect that to wait at least until 20th (or well beyond if DM is using 3e Deities & Demigods), but avatars can be used much earlier; the avatars in 1e Greyhawk Adventures started at around 8th level and there's no reason not to use eg 6th level avatars in a low-level 3e game.

 

[S'mon]

Yep. I think the Gord the Rogue books were the catalyst for all that.

Yup - the highschool campaign I ran was always conceived of as having Graz'zt as the primary BBEG (not that we used such terms back then!), so when I got "Sea of Death" it fitted perfectly.

 

[Fieari]

A neat little short story/explanation of Akashic Records you might enjoy: I have always imagined that Paradise will be a kind of library

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi Iceflame55 mate!

By the way I had a run in with a phantom version of MSBlast earlier - hence the reason I haven't been online this evening.

I went to that thread about the Gods not needing stats, and couldn't resist adding my own two cents, respectively of course.

While I'm waiting to discover if my post is accepted as valid (I'm fairly sure it will be, as I far more polite than the ranter in question),

I tried posting to that thread half a dozen times but it never allowed me. In fact the rant on my website was directly fuelled by Crimson Helkite's jive in that thread.

I've got a request for anyone interested in Highlander Immortals *ducks behind the podium in case of attack by flying rotten vegatable matter* hear me out plz!

I like Highlander, and I know S'mon likes Highlander - didn't you create a set of Highlander RPG rules?

I've been fascinated by Highlander since it first came out on TV, but have never seen a set of rules I liked involving them. For example the 3.5 netbook about them adds in rules that must be used as is, or you cripple the character. There's a Unisystem conversion that is much more logical to my mind, but since Unisystem different rules set, going to take some work to use. Has anyone else got Ideas, suggestions, etc.?

The Unisystem Rules were written by Jason Vey, and I can't remember how on earth I found the book in question, so I can't post a link to it, sorry.

Again, part of my reasons for looking at other things, is to stave off Insanity until U_K can finish the first .pdf!

Thank You for even reading this!!!

S'mon can best answer this I think. I wonder do you still have those Highlander rules on your computer S'mon?

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya S'mon!

Yup - Leo the Wizard & co have gone on like that, and even gotten worse - there's a disjunct between Leo's player's play-style and my GM style that's become very marked at higher levels and made the PC group far less effective than I'd have expected, with my experience of Thrin (and even of Fergus's Chaotic PCs)!

I was always careful in my behind the scenes prep so that Thrin had no weaknesses, but I think I was pretty quick when it came to us actually 'gaming'. Fergus was indeed dynamite, how he survived as long as he did...

AIR Graz'zt IMC did kill both Orcus & Zuggtmoy in single combat, he was lucky not to fail a save vs Orcus's poison tail!

Yes, but you'll never live down what you did to Lolth, 122hp indeed!

Re AoOs - I haven't seen them as a big problem, though the higher level you get the more Reach creatures there are. A lot of PCs & Cohorts have been killed by large Grapplers, the +4 Grapple bonus is a killer on top of high BAB & STR - they've finally started casting Free Action, which has helped a lot.

There are a lot of abilities that let you ignore grappling, tripping and disarming (etc.) - unless so attacked by more powerful deities.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Stats for gods in a sub-deity game - I think these can be useful to get a measure of relative divine power, both overall and in different areas of expertise, which is useful for judging deity interractions - eg if you have 2 "gods of magic" and one is 20 Wizard levels higher than the other then the deities will relate differently than if their stats indicate they're roughly equal. This requires lots of variation in the stats, as 1e Legends & Lore did but 3e D&DG singularly failed to. Personified stats enable deities to be used as NPCs rather than as abstract concepts - eg if you have stats for Blug the Evil One, you know whether Blug is scared of Abulin the Solar, or if he could crush Abulin like an ant, and the feel of their encounter would be very different from statted-solar encountering unstatted (thus omnipotent?) deity. Deity stats can also be used as the basis for low-level avatars. In 1e 10th level PCs could contend directly with gods; most 3e campaigns expect that to wait at least until 20th (or well beyond if DM is using 3e Deities & Demigods), but avatars can be used much earlier; the avatars in 1e Greyhawk Adventures started at around 8th level and there's no reason not to use eg 6th level avatars in a low-level 3e game.

I agree, but this argument isn't enough -- if all you want is a power ranking, WotC's divine rank system is good enough. With the IH you get more (or so I must presume): what one god can do for his followers that others can't, what one is likely to notice, how many weak ones it would take to kill one strong one, etc.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hello again!

I'd like to see this too.

Okay, okay. I'll get on it.

I enjoyed the Rant but it would probably benefit from specific literary & mythical examples of humans contending with and sometimes beating gods - Diomedes vs Ares, Elric vs Xiombarg, Corum vs Arioch, Jacob vs Jhvh, etc.

Gord vs. Iuz, Achilles vs. Aphrodite, Thrin vs. Druaga (first fight).

Examples from your experiences of D&D deity play would be nice too, especially for my ego.

If only we had made a campaign journal at the time - we'd have a best seller, to heck with that Harry Potter!

By the way I have just started reading His Dark Materials by Philip Pullman - has anyone read it? Is it any good?

My feeling is that mortals with their fleeting lives are perhaps the biggest threat to gods because mortals are often willing to take chances that no god will, to "take a shot at the big one"; whereas immortal beings who have already survived for aeons tend to be highly risk-averse and conservative, often wrapped up in layers of treaties, alliances and non-aggression pacts until they're almost impotent. I use Norse mythology as an inspiration, especially Odin with his runestaff on which all his divine treaties are signed, unbreakable - until Ragnarok, when all bonds are broken.

In a more practical capacity by creating the two tiered system you pretty much make all the core rulebooks redundant. None of the monsters can challenge you, none of the spells affect you, none of the magic items can hurt you (artifacts aside). So you are immediately removing your largest source of information and in doing that are you still truly playing D&D?