The Immortals Handbook

[CRGreathouse]

Therefore its very silly to suggest that a Colossal Giant (eg. Mountain Giant) will have a Reach of only 30 ft. If it had no arms it would still have a Reach of 30 ft. for goodness sake. I don't see how WotC come up with the idea that Reach would be somehow proportionally less for bigger creatures - its totally illogical. Similarly so with Space.

I think that, in general, reach is exaggerated for smaller creatures (that is, Small to Large) so that it fits on the 5-ft grid. 5-foot reach is too much for a Medium creature, but all it means is being able to reach into the bordering 5' square.

If smaller squares were used, I think a 3-foot reach would be more reasonable, which rounds to 5 feet on the grid. This would actually scale reasonably well, at least well enough that the giant you cite wouldn't be too far off.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse mate!

I think that, in general, reach is exaggerated for smaller creatures (that is, Small to Large) so that it fits on the 5-ft grid. 5-foot reach is too much for a Medium creature, but all it means is being able to reach into the bordering 5' square.

Test it out. I think 5ft. is okay for medium. I was able to reach it using the previously mentioned method of planting one foot.

If smaller squares were used, I think a 3-foot reach would be more reasonable, which rounds to 5 feet on the grid. This would actually scale reasonably well, at least well enough that the giant you cite wouldn't be too far off.

The method I use to determine reach is:

Tall Creature (Reach = Height rounded down to nearest multiple of 5 ft.)

Long Creature (Reach = 2/3 Height rounded up to nearest multiple of 5 ft.)

 

[CRGreathouse]

Test it out. I think 5ft. is okay for medium. I was able to reach it using the previously mentioned method of planting one foot.

You're assuming that your "travelling" is the definition of reach, which you based on your assumption that 5-foot reach is accurate for a Medium creature.

I assume that the larger reaches are accurate, which leads me to a different definition for reach, which leads me to the conclusion that Medium characters should have 3-ft reach (which then rounds to 5 feet and so works).

I see no reason to favor your choice of basis over mine, and mine has the added advantage of not requiring changes to any MM creatures.

 

[Zoatebix]

Colossal (tall) creatures have to reach down pretty far to hit a Medium creature, and Mr Pythagoras says that they'll "loose" quite a bit of reach that way (with reach as one of the bases of the triangle, the difference between the giant's shoulder and a tender whacking spot on the medium creature's body is another base, and the giant's swining arm is deadly hypotenuse). Maybe MM reaches are accurate for tall creatures fighting smaller creatures on the ground, but need to be adjusted as the "level" at which creatures make their swings changes.

That sounds prohibitively complicated. Not that a 75 mile creature on a 5-foot grid isn't already ridonkulous. Still - I think we'd all like to find a happy, playable, medium

 

[Kalanyr]

Well the problem with a medium creature with 3' reach rounding to 5 is that a small creatures reach should round to 0 (IIRC).

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya mate!

Unfortunately that sore throat and mild cold has had a turn for the worse, and I seemingly now have the flu. Hopefully the medicine will cure it.

You're assuming that your "travelling" is the definition of reach, which you based on your assumption that 5-foot reach is accurate for a Medium creature.

Well it seems logical. As I initially mentioned extrapolating upwards has some crazy results that singularly prove the official treatment of reach (and Space) is broken.

I assume that the larger reaches are accurate,

Well I think its a false assumption.

Are you suggesting that a 75 mile tall humanoid only has a reach of 1.5 miles? How would it move - in tiny baby steps? Its just illogical. A normal stride could reach 30 miles alone.

which leads me to a different definition for reach, which leads me to the conclusion that Medium characters should have 3-ft reach (which then rounds to 5 feet and so works).

I can't see how anyone can logically arrive at that conclusion.

When size doubles, reach doubles. It can't increase by 50%.

I see no reason to favor your choice of basis over mine,

See above.

and mine has the added advantage of not requiring changes to any MM creatures.

Well, you can't make an omelette without breaking a few eggs.

 

[Knight Otu]

Less core rule tinkering, more book writing!

And a quick recovery!

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hiya matey!

Colossal (tall) creatures have to reach down pretty far to hit a Medium creature,

Well firstly size is relative.

and Mr Pythagoras says that they'll "loose" quite a bit of reach that way (with reach as one of the bases of the triangle, the difference between the giant's shoulder and a tender whacking spot on the medium creature's body is another base, and the giant's swining arm is deadly hypotenuse). Maybe MM reaches are accurate for tall creatures fighting smaller creatures on the ground, but need to be adjusted as the "level" at which creatures make their swings changes.

Doesn't your assumption require that they can't move either of their feet for the determination of reach, in which case you can't actually turn round, meaning that reach should be a semi-circle.

If you can pivot on one foot, then your reach is effective in any direction.

Reach must include a single stride in its make-up, otherwise creatures with no arms, have no reach.

That sounds prohibitively complicated.

Are you refering to my Reach = Height (tall creature)/2/3 Length (long creature)? I thought it was fairly simple.

Not that a 75 mile creature on a 5-foot grid isn't already ridonkulous.

I think it illustrates the problems inherant in the system pretty well, much the same way you would never notice the CR problems until you extrapolate them upwards.

Still - I think we'd all like to find a happy, playable, medium

Frankly I think Reach/Space is an open and shut case. Speed is a much trickier customer, and its dwindling returns are even more abrupt.

 

[CRGreathouse]

Well I think its a false assumption.

Are you suggesting that a 75 mile tall humanoid only has a reach of 1.5 miles? How would it move - in tiny baby steps? Its just illogical. A normal stride could reach 30 miles alone.

I don't assume it can move either foot out of its space, so its step size is irrelevant. Also, I agree with Zoatebix insofar as it seems its based on the assumption of fighting Medium creatures. This could kill perhaps a third of its reach.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Hi CRGreathouse dude!

I don't assume it can move either foot out of its space, so its step size is irrelevant.

But its 'step' is another form of reach (stomp attack anyone), so I ask again, can you still say that such a creature can only reach/step 1.5 miles?

Also, I agree with Zoatebix insofar as it seems its based on the assumption of fighting Medium creatures. This could kill perhaps a third of its reach.

If someone can convince me that the reach of a 75 mile tall giant should be 1.5 miles then I'll be happy to change my approach to Reach/Space.