The Insane Multispell
- Thread starter -Eä-
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Crothian
First Post
58 spells a round? One ruguliar, one with hast, one quicked + 55 multi spell feats. wizards get two feats every 3 levels at epic level. So, at about 103 level you'll be able to do this. The only feats you'll have from level 21+ are multi spell. The level may be a little off.
Edit: and that isn't even considering that the ability to cast 58 save or death spells even makes this more unlikely.
Edit: and that isn't even considering that the ability to cast 58 save or death spells even makes this more unlikely.
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-Eä- said:
No way. Never. Ever. Free actions don't trump initiative. You'll break the system with Quickened spells long before characters reach Epic levels if you implement that kind of rule.
Anyway, I follow the general consensus of most of the replies here. There are thousands of ways to deal death-in-the-blink-of-an eye once you start to reach deep into epic levels. Battles between two such earthshakers would come down to 3 main factors, IMO:
1) Who can get their 'nuke' off first.
2) Who has the better contigency/protection/escape plan against the opponent's nuke.
3) If the nukes don't kill the duelers (and neither are able or have the inclination to flee), who can follow up with a fast, solid offense to sweep up what's left.
Of course, these fights are extremely risky and also leave the caster vulnerable after expending his power, which is why they're more likely to manipulate others from behind the scenes rather than being visible at the front lines of the struggle.
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Crothian said:
Indeed unlikely... I would never, NEVER, play such a character. It would be boring and dull in my opinion, preparing only save or death spells. But I know someone that actually would consider playing such a character... "I am able to kill anyone" he would say, but he is an EXTREME powergamer as well... I don't mind playing with him, though, as most things can be done without killing, and is probably funnier when doing it this way, and as long he does not excercise these supreme slaying powers at a regular basis, it's not a problem...
In duels, though, I think it should be banned. Not that I think I will play duels using 100 level characters anytime soon.
Edit: The Sage has said that Time Stop cannot be made Persistant. And: read this thread: On Time Stop
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Um... okay. "Hey, that evil warlord demigod is too strong for us. Let's go adventuring for a few years, so Presto the Magician can gain a few dozen levels and learn 15 new epic feats. Then he'll have enough power to instantly kill the bad guy."
I don't think so.You are of course entitled to your opinion on what the rules should be. Unfortunately, this not how they actually work. If you lose initiative, the opponent gets to act before you have figured out what to do.
Wanna make things work some other way in your game? Fine. The House Rules forum is this way.
So, by 100th level you're casting Finger of Death a bazillion times in a round. Whoop-de-doo. By that time, I can have developed an epic spell that makes me immune to all nonepic death effects. Cast all you want, I'll still be standing when you finish.
Not a death effect? Maybe you were casting a ton of Fireballs, or doing some other kind of energy damage? I can be wearing my Ring of Universal Elemental Immunity. You won't even singe my cloak.
Attacks do become powerful at high levels, but so do defenses. No matter what kind of spell you decide to memorize 58 times, it's possible that an epic-level target is entirely immune to it.
[Edited to add: Even before epic levels, a simple flesh golem would stymie you. Fire and cold only slow it; electricity heals it; it's immune to all other magic. You can't kill a flesh golem with only spells, no matter how many you cast at it.]
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Actually, it's no problem killing a Golem of any type with only spells. Summon a basilion elementals, create some huge objects to fall on him etc...
Not all creatures are immune to death effects, not all to energy damage. Creating a Greater Deity with the correct SDAs an feats may make him immune to regular attacks, energy damage and death effects. How would you kill such a being? Perhaps there is a sole trigger that will kill him?
Defenses generally improve less than offenses, or else you would not have made it so far.
A CE character may have no qualms in killing the Archmage of a Planar Metropolis, taking his relics and gain an insane amount experience. Just like that...if he gets the chance. He will probably be killed afterward, but random actions are seldom prepared for.
Not all creatures are immune to death effects, not all to energy damage. Creating a Greater Deity with the correct SDAs an feats may make him immune to regular attacks, energy damage and death effects. How would you kill such a being? Perhaps there is a sole trigger that will kill him?
Defenses generally improve less than offenses, or else you would not have made it so far.
A CE character may have no qualms in killing the Archmage of a Planar Metropolis, taking his relics and gain an insane amount experience. Just like that...if he gets the chance. He will probably be killed afterward, but random actions are seldom prepared for.
Jondor_Battlehammer
First Post
As a rough calculation, a 20th level wizard is going to have around 30 spell slots capable of holding a death spell, including his Int bonus. Maybe round that up to 40 if he puts all his ability ups into Int over his epic career. That number of spells will never change, as he is buying other feats. It also means no epic spells, points brought up often in other threads about useless feats.
I will certainly use this combo, and it will be scary, but not for the save or die spells I will cast, nor for the fire balls. It will be scary because of the spells I will cast on my ALLIES. A group of adventurers can cause mor havoc in one round than any spell. By increasing their ability, I increase my versatility and ultimate destructive power, and that is what potenially, and I say potentially, makes this the most powerful feat cobo.
Imagine, not having to decide on who to give greater magic weapon to in the one round you have to act, or not having to chance healing one party member over the other. THOSE possabilities are the ones that should be giving GM's nightmares.
I will certainly use this combo, and it will be scary, but not for the save or die spells I will cast, nor for the fire balls. It will be scary because of the spells I will cast on my ALLIES. A group of adventurers can cause mor havoc in one round than any spell. By increasing their ability, I increase my versatility and ultimate destructive power, and that is what potenially, and I say potentially, makes this the most powerful feat cobo.
Imagine, not having to decide on who to give greater magic weapon to in the one round you have to act, or not having to chance healing one party member over the other. THOSE possabilities are the ones that should be giving GM's nightmares.
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Jondor_Battlehammer said:
Yes, I agree! This is another marvelous thing to do with it, and for a lousy one Improved Metamagic, who needs to create epic items for increasing ability scores? If the abilities are dispelled, you just turn them on again as a free action at the beginning of the next round. As it is for all the other spells.
For Gods this is even worse, as you only need two SDAs to be rather nasty: Automatic Metamagic: Quicken Spell and Divine Spellcasting. That's 2 Divine Ranks
For Epic Feats: Improved Heighten Spell and Multispell, and perhaps Improved Metamagic twice. From then and on: Multispell.
Well, assuming the Archmage is question has no defenses, Contingencies, golem guards, minions, Clones, Hide Life, Persistent Death Ward, Spell Turning, epic defenses, etc. etc.
Because that's the crux. Yes, you can use this combo to take out anyone or anything without the appropriate defenses, but you can use a dozen other combinations. By 104th level, you can churn out obscenely Empowered Spells to achieve a similar effect. You can't Persistent Time Stop, but if you empower it about 90 times then you could still have the best part of 200 rounds at your disposal. Follow up with 200 Intensified Meteor Storms for 56,600 damage or other such silliness.
But the point is that more often than not at this level, the creatures you are going toe-to-toe with do have these defenses. I appreciate the power of the combination, but the number of times it will actually come in useful (i.e. the 'victim' will not have the defenses listed above) are unfortunately very few.
