The iPhone Will Kill D&D

This isn't going to happen like you think it will

They have all sorts of electronic Monopoly games, but the number 1 selling game in America is Monopoly in its board version.

Sure, some people will go out there and play with electronic this and that. Wizards even has a Facebook version of D&D (although it is some wierd hybrid facebook edition).

I just think that the majority of players, myself included enjoy playing around a table with friends, beer in one hand - dice in the other.

Do electronix media supplement the system, sure but it is optional. Bottom line is you only need 3 books and some dice, and a pad of paper. That is the beauty of the game. D&D is scalable in that hard core players can go all out while 2 percenters can just go bare minimum. With the starter box game you dont even need the books.

Yes techno stuff is cool, but I don't find sitting around a table loaded with laptops and such to be any kind of fun whatsoever. If I want that...I will just go play WOW.
 

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The posit in the OP was:
"When you take the math away from the actual sitting of the rules and don't have to keep track of all the crazy stuff that players can do and how it impacts with everything around them, then yeah, the MMO experience of the rules being fully in the background will be realized. "

Which I read to be, "the machine handles all mechanics".

That prohibits the DM from injecting new mechanics, or effects which the coded mechanics do not allow for.

As a basic example: if the game did not allow for an effect that lasts a specified number of rounds (f'rex: most status stuff in 4e is "until save" not for a specific number of rounds) then such an effect either cannot be used, or must be tracked outside of the tool - which, of course, is going back and doing what you were doing before you had the tool.

Many people may be satisfied with having the mechanic imposed by machine. Many would not.

And, as noted before, if you try to code the ting so it is infinitely flexible, it will become infinitely unusable. That's a basic fact of UI.
It really depends on how far out we are looking here. As computing power increases, manageable flexibility increases as well. Of course anything that pushes the current envelope will be an utter mess both within the code and in the UI. But what pushes the envelop today is baseline functionality down the road.

If we're looking far enough out, changing the UI from buttons and dropdowns to speech parsing can increase the level of manageable flexibility massively (just like the Wii simplified game controllers as Canis pointed out). Going with the current software interface with forms - sure, massive flexibility creates a nightmare of a UI. But the style of software interface won't last forever - or at the very least it won't remain as dominant forever. There are some things that it might still be the most efficient for. But down the road, there will keep being more and more UI options that can handle greater flexbility much easier.

Add on schema-less data models and the like, and you have system that isn't a bunch of rules, but is a rule-building system that happens to come with D&D 15e pre-loaded.

I'm not saying that is where D&D will end up. I'm just saying, never count out technology. You just have to look far enough down the road. :)

But, I agree with many here that the technology that will catch on is what will help facilitate human-to-human interaction, not replace it. And some traditions are better left untouched. For example, with something like Microsoft Surface, personally I'd prefer it detect what I rolled on my dice (by looking at the number that is facing down to determine the number facing up) than have some automated roller - because physically rolling dice is fun. But, that's me.
 

Betting against Moore's Law has been a losing proposition for virtual buggy whip manufacturers for a long time now.

People getting hung up on what the iPhone of 2008 can do aren't getting Joe's point and are getting wrapped up in his tongue in cheek title, I think.

Computer-aided RPGs are already here and it'll just get more pervasive. When I went to college, there were engineers who turned their noses up at CAD programs because they preferred to draw everything by hand and the intuitive understanding of a project imparted by drafting by hand. It's good to see those folks play RPGs and are on this thread. Sorry the resistance-to-CAD didn't work out for you guys, though. ;)

Well, what I was circuitously getting at is that once the technology does progress that far, we'll still end up doing it the same old way, only in an entirely virtual arena. People are funny like that -- nostalgia rules more than we'd like to think, and the tales of "Why, back in my day, Sonny...." from us old coots to our grandkids will inspire them to try to get back to the basics, thus leading to my slightly absurd scenario. :)
 

Technology really cannot even touch the experience of sitting at a table with your friends with everything physically there.

I'd say that playing in person and playing via an interface like Fantasy Grounds or 20Pro are two vastly different experiences. I think sitting at a table joking with your friends is great, but I think you get less of that through an interface. People tend to focus on playing the game more which for me is also great. In my games we could spend an hour talking and joking about anything OTHER than the game, but there are times where I wish that wasnt the case. I'm also talking about utility as in actually getting to play AT ALL if you cant get everyone in one place which is a real issue for a fair amount of gamers.

Hell, I LOVE rolling dice, but like I said before, if I'm somewhere that I can't roll dice I'll use an automated dice roller. I think you get a DIFFERENT experience gaming through an interface than you would gaming in person, but preference dictates that one is better than the other.

I can do both and have no problem with it. Because the alternative is not gaming at all, that's why I think that technology is going to catch up with the game sooner than later. Even WOTC has seen that (granted they havent produced their solution). It's a good thing to be able to game with an old JHS who's in Michigan, when you live in NYC. It's good to keep a game going when your players may have to move away. Only technology will facilitate that. I'll repeat what several others have said here, I said it in one of my earlier posts, I dont think that tech will replace the game, but I do think it's going to be used to facilitate play in ways that are different than what we're doing now.
 

They have all sorts of electronic Monopoly games, but the number 1 selling game in America is Monopoly in its board version.
Absolutely true.

But the minute Cataan became available on X-box Live, people flocked to it in droves, because there's a lot of overlap in that install base, as it were.

Once half the homes in the US have flat LCDs that can be rolled up like a poster (yes, this tech is happening, too).... why buy a board for each game you have when you have one device that can be EVERY board game?

That's like buying a new PC for every computer game you want.
 

IAs computing power increases, manageable flexibility increases as well. Of course anything that pushes the current envelope will be an utter mess both within the code and in the UI. But what pushes the envelop today is baseline functionality down the road.

My User Interaction Design friends don't agree with that assessment. The limiting factor in UI is not the computing power - it is limited by human perception and thinking, and that is not notably changing with the increase in computer power. The human mind only processes so much visual data at a time - so you always have a limit to how much you can present to a user, and thus have a minimum number of interactions to get into any particular activity.

Unless (and until) you are talking about direct neural input and interaction, the UI issue remains.
 

Too many reasons against going totally digital

1. Apple and the I-phone will go out of business in the next 5 to 10 years, so they won't be doing it.

2. New tech might be able to achieve this and a large group will check it out when it is available, but I don't think it will replace tabletop anytime soon.

3. Being the difference between MMORPGs and Tabletop, you either like one and not the other. MMORPG people may jump on this in a heartbeat, the rest will go "nah, another expensive toy, no thank you." Me included.

4. A friend of mine's son just got out of prison - the whole time he was in 2 years, him and his cellmate played D&D without books, without dice, without figs - in kind of general house rules system (based on memory), they used pennies in a shoe box for dice (shook the box and counted heads vs. tails). The point is there will always be people who don't have accesss to the latest tech, or be able to get them. Tabletop is much easier to acquire, less expensive to no expense to participate. There will always be a core of tabletop players.

5. As far as virtual reality goes, except in the case of shoot-em-up games, games that require sword play - that's exercise, in words work. I don't know how many gamers you know, but almost none of them I know are truly athletic. VR will be something everybody tries. But most geeks I know are couch potatoes, unlikely to sweat in swinging an imaginary sword just to play a game. Holodecks as an idea if such existed, wouldn't dominate the gaming industry, so it certainly wouldn't replace it.

6. I've even tried to get my players to use a projection screen with a laptop and MapTool. They don't even want a PC in the game room. They prefer dice and books to digital content any day.

7. Finally everybody has their favorite D20 dice in their dice bag. I could never find anyone at all interested in digital dice. If you can't hold dice in your hands and chance on your throw, why play the game at all. That's the consensus from most D&Der's I've ever met.

You're dreamin' and not very good dream at that.

GP
 

My User Interaction Design friends don't agree with that assessment. The limiting factor in UI is not the computing power - it is limited by human perception and thinking, and that is not notably changing with the increase in computer power. The human mind only processes so much visual data at a time - so you always have a limit to how much you can present to a user, and thus have a minimum number of interactions to get into any particular activity.

Unless (and until) you are talking about direct neural input and interaction, the UI issue remains.

So what? Part of the nice things about newer technology is that we can make things simpler to use by abstracting more. With greater abstraction tends to come simpler design. Simpler design tends to increase usability. Greater usability generally means more information presented to the untrained user. The simplicity may bother power users, but y'know, I suspect even those IT folk who complain endlessly about the "dying of the command line" work in them less and less nowadays because there are fewer and fewer situations in which the command line interface speeds up their workflow sufficiently enough to bother with the difficulty of the interface. Sure, there's always "But I grepped the file and did a find/replace on every instance of <insert phrase>" types stories, but think about that.. that's a very extreme sort of deal. Most problems aren't that straightforward. Even then, modern GUIs can probably make it easier to more complex jobs than those, while still having similar response times to the user.

And that's not uncommon anywhere. Almost always, new features are difficult to implement because no one's figured out a useful means of abstracting that difficulty away, and as a result, tend to be harder to use for the user, because they have to know something of the design in order to use it. They're complex and tend to be hacked together because the people who built them are going to be interested in the fastest way of implementing that new feature, not necessarily the way that makes it simple to build down the road. That comes later. Once it becomes simple to build, that's when it becomes easy to use, because they can abstract things to another level to make things easier on the end user.

The first GUIs abstracted away the difficulty of commandlines, which were a way of abstracting away the complexities of the manual switches that themselves abstracted away problems of the punchcards that were the first computer interface found in the modern digital computer. I could go further, eventually to fingers and toes, but the point remains that each generation of interface has removed barriers to information transfer by abstracting away some of the problems of the prior generation. In each case, each new interface was, at first, hacked together, slow, and probably barely usable. But that was not the point. The point was that even in that state, they were simpler for the average person to use than the one that came before. So they became popular. But in order to build each one, computer power had to increase to a point that the next one became viable.

The newest interfaces are touch-screen and motion-based and speech interfaces; they are complex because of the way they interact with us, and require a lot of computation to be there in order for them to work efficiently. So they are comparatively new, and difficult to implement. But things are getting better. Touchscreens are getting more standardized, and thus easier to implement. They are becoming cheaper, so they are usable on more things. Videocams and Microphones are becoming a standard peripheral that no computer comes without, just as mice became once GUIs became popular.

That's how advances in technology make for better interfaces; by letting us sacrifice some of the advances in speed to focus on usability and to abstract away problems that existed before. Because we can abstract away some problems, we can choose to focus on others and lessen the amount of extraneous information needed to obtain that which really matters.

Ironically, D&D software's likely to head where MMOs, D&D's lineal descendants by way of the original CRPGs, already have, abstracting away the core mathematics in favor of presenting a simpler interface to the end user. The original CRPGs abstracted away mechanics more than D&D, so they became popular. Then MMOs abstracted away CRPG mechanics even more, and became popular. Then MMOs started abstracting away mechanics within themselves, and became still more popular. World of Warcraft has highly complex mechanics. But to the end user, the mechanics are pretty simple. Press a button, and you hit things, and if you drop it's health bar down to nothing before yours goes to nothing, you beat it. Occasionally, there are abilities that boost your health bar, or modify other statistics, but in general, you are good to go just knowing those few things. If you want more, you can look at the character sheet. You can look at statistics like your hit rate, your crit rate, how fast you hit, and how much health you have, among other things. But the great thing is, you can choose how complex you want your interface. There are some amazingly complex World of Warcraft interfaces out there. There are also some very, very simple ones. This is one reason World of Warcraft became popular. It abstracted away mechanics that were forced on the user in previous titles, and made the amount of abstraction involved a player choice. It made things simple. It is also probably simpler on the designers. Most of the items in WoW are quite standardized, with a number of systems that make things easier for the designers to focus on making the game fun, rather than on implementing any one thing.

And yet again, there is the reason computer software is going to come to D&D. We already play RPGs every time we play a computer game with a story. The designer's already crafted his tale, and we're simply playing through it. The reason D&D sticks around is because we want tales that we make, rather than those that are purely the GM's fantasy. But we don't want to make things harder on ourselves. That's why RPG players slowly find themselves moving more and more to video games. It's because they are simpler to play.

And yes, the mechanics will have to be almost totally in the background. That's the point. In order to compete with WoW, TV, or the internet, all of which have simplified things to the point that quite young children can use them with almost no training, those designing future editions of D&D have to make it possible to abstract away mechanical choices as much as possible and leave players to only those which are important. Like choosing to use X ability instead of Y ability, or choosing to use none at all. Gribble's and Canis's ideas for "power card-ization" of character sheets is not uncommon. WoW's Armory and character sheets work in exactly that way, and I presume EVE Online's skill builders and whatnot do things that way as well.

And for that, with modern screens, you can deliver the needed information on the screen in some amazingly tiny packages.
 


4. A friend of mine's son just got out of prison - the whole time he was in 2 years, him and his cellmate played D&D without books, without dice, without figs - in kind of general house rules system (based on memory), they used pennies in a shoe box for dice (shook the box and counted heads vs. tails). The point is there will always be people who don't have accesss to the latest tech, or be able to get them. Tabletop is much easier to acquire, less expensive to no expense to participate. There will always be a core of tabletop players.

I don't think anyone is necessarily saying D&D will go totally digital; just that 5e or 6e is likely to have an "all digital" version that goes on your phone and takes away some of the difficulties of playing in addition to the books. Think the Character Builder but with more stuff, basically. Also, we're talking about software that facilitates tabletop play, and is meant to make it easier.

5. As far as virtual reality goes, except in the case of shoot-em-up games, games that require sword play - that's exercise, in words work. I don't know how many gamers you know, but almost none of them I know are truly athletic. VR will be something everybody tries. But most geeks I know are couch potatoes, unlikely to sweat in swinging an imaginary sword just to play a game. Holodecks as an idea if such existed, wouldn't dominate the gaming industry, so it certainly wouldn't replace it.

My parents have largely refused to play any 3D video games, and for them, exercise at gyms has been historically a cause of frustration. But when WiiFit came out and they finally managed to get a copy, they've started playing, which should be surprising, since is both 3D and an exercise game. Likewise, the most popular game on the Wii both by sales numbers and people's comments seems to be Wii Sports. Gamers, who are supposed to hate such things, actually seem to love it, particularly the boxing mini-game, which is incredibly strenuous. I'm reasonably fit, and I can't last 30 minutes doing it. (Admittedly, I have asthma, but I do martial arts and have done 50 mile backpacking treks in the Rockies, so it's not like I don't have some endurance.) It may sound odd, but people seemingly don't mind workouts in games, so long as those games are fun. It's so popular in fact, that I suspect that Nintendo's announcement of a Punch-Out! game for the Wii is in part to capitalize on the success of Wii Sports' boxing mode with hardcore gamers as well as gamer nostalgia.
 

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