The issue of super strength

[Danzauker]

The problem is that D&D d20 is not really tuned for comic book action.

The numerical stats are just that: numbers used in the game to "represent" physical or mental attributes.

"Strength" only sums "everything that helps you bang someone in the head and lift scores" in one number.

It puts prowess, cohordination, arm and leg power in just one stat.

Of course it's not accurate (a long distance runner and a 100 mt runner are both very strong, but their kind of strength is different. For those who care, even their leg muscle type is different).

But it's simple enough to play.

This not only Strength's case. It's the same for Dex, Wis, Cha...

What links hand-eye cohordination and balance? Can't a good sharp-shooter be clumpsy or overweight?.

That's just because they wanted to keep the abilities down to six. And that's nice for D&D IMHO.

If you want the degree of "precision" super heros have maybe it should be needed to split the basic abilities in 12 or more (those who were around in 2nd edition knows what I'm talking of).

So you could have a Prowess ability that adds to BAB (good for Captain America type characters), a Muscle ability for those who lift tons, Aim for Hawkeye and Balance for Daredevil, and so on.

This doesn't solve the problem regarding "crappy die + super oomph modifier" of course. That's another matter altogether.

I have to say I like the system that caps every ability at a value and then starts to add dice after that. I'll give it a try

 

[CreatorOfWorlds]

Of course, if you REALLY wanted to boil it down to a matter of what's what, using 12 scores as such, then you could start with the basic 6 and tree it off from there.

But if I were to do it that way, I'd only roll 3d6 to get those, and add the modifier from those to both of that ability's branching scores.

Example: You roll 3d6 for Dexterity and you get an 8. You then MUST add a -1 modifier to both of Dexterity's subabilities. In this case, I'll call them Coordination and Agility. But for those, you roll 4d6 regularly (subtracting the lowest die), then apply the -1 modifier to both of them.

Now, if I were to use 12 ability scores as the norm for determining a character's attributes, then I'd also (every 4 levels when a point is awarded to characters to add to any one ability) give the players an additional point to distribute.

Here's a list of (if I were doing it this way) the six major abilities, and their subabilities (and what the subabilities govern).

STRENGTH
Power - raw damage inflicted for impact
Lift - determined for carrying capacity and maximum press
DEXTERITY
Coordination - for success or failure of attacks
Agility - for ease of movement in all things
CONSTITUTION
Endurance - for prolonging strained activity (adds to HP)
Health - physical condition, ability to shrug off sickness
INTELLIGENCE
Education - determines value of study retained, including magic
Brilliance - determines the raw uneducated potential
WISDOM
Faith - useful for all things devine and diety related
Experience - applies to all practical and hands-on knowledge
CHARISMA
Charm - ability to persuade others to other ways of thinking
Comeliness - physical beauty and attractiveness

Of course, the way I'd be handling that little "Experience" and "Brilliance" stat, if I were a game creator... I'd give the players 1 point to add to the Experience ability at 1st level, and then every level after that, give them an additional 1 point to add. The reason for this is that I'd directly tie the "Experience" stat with how much additional experience was gained when an XP award was given out.

I'd take the Experience modifier and multiply it by the Brilliance modifier, and what was left over would be the percentage increase of each XP award the character was given.

For example, if a character with a Brilliance of 15 and an Experience of 14 was awarded 915xp. The actual ammount he would get would be 951xp. (Both 15 and 14 are a +2 modifier. 2x2=4. Four percent of 915 is 36.6 (round down). 915+36=951xp).

But that's just me, based on the 12 score system. I probably won't use this system, as it seems like quite a hassle.

DJ

 

[Great Umbrage]

The problem, actually, lies within the mechanics of the d20 system itself. There's a flaw in the way it handles modifiers over +20, whether from skills or ability bonuses or some combination thereof. The d20 becomes insignificant.

Now, I understand the point of assigning DCs of 50 or 100 or whatever, since it represents a minimum skill or ability level required to perform a certain task. But, as the bonus modifier increases, the individual points deflate in value, thereby deflating the value of the randomness.

This is something that arises because in d20, everything is positive, and the bigger the number, the better. Everything is addition, so this is really user-friendly. But it's limited.

As I mentioned before, I kind of like what 4CTF did, by converting every +10 bonus above +20 into a +d20 roll...that is, a +30 skill bonus is really a 1d20+20...a reverse "take 10." There is the problem, though, in comparing a +29 to a 1d20+20...by taking that extra skill rank, you increase the randomness...but that's a problem only at the interstices of the cut-offs. Otherwise, it's a nice system.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I really don't think splitting the ability scores is necessary.

As to whether a good sharpshooter could be clumsy or overweight I say (as a general rule) no they couldn't. However a skilled/experienced sharpshooter could be.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

not owning Mutants and masterminds this is jsut a guess. But looking at teh fast play rules I came up with this. Protinick has super str+12 and a 20 str. +12 super str lets you lift 4,000 times what someone your size could normally lift. If you double at every +1, at +10 you get 1,000 and 12 you get 4,000. If you had super str+24(not sure how high you can go) you could lift 4,000,000 times what someone your str could normally lift. Ot since protinick can lift 800 tons 800,000 tons. If you had a +29 super str you could lift 25,000,000 tons. Now we're talking supeman style str. What this would cost in Mutants and Masterminds, and what power level this would place you at, and if they have a maximum power level which would stop this I don't know. But all in all if my guesses are right a fairly cool super str system(reminds me of old DC game)

 

[Silverthrone]

Super heroes do not just lift huge amounts of weight with thier strength though. They do actually inflict enormous amounts of damage. Someone like Superman could shatter the moon if he punched it as hard as he can. Silver Surfer can shatter planets with the power cosmic, as can Thor with his godly esence strike.

I won't even start with what Goku would be capable of.

The D20 rules simply do not integrate well with super heroes at all. I still do not understand the push of D20 as a multigenre rules set, as it is basically the same rules D&D has used since 2e, and they were not much good for anything but D&D even then.

A class and level system is bad enough to try and make multigenre, but actually throwing in such limited stats, it is a horrid system to try and make multgenre.

Hulk could lift way over 100,000 tons with ease, having lifted far more than that during Secret Wars.

Supes could lift over a trillion tons without even trying hard.

Superman One Million could punch, off pure strength alone, through the time barrier.

 

[Shard O'Glase]

wow I don't knw if I have the words to describe how much I disagree with you. d20 pretty much boils down to a d20+modifers=success if it makes the DC. That seems like a fairly multi-genre ssytem basis to me. And 6 stats seem far from limiting to me, and there doesn't seem to be a reason you couldn't add a stat if it realy fit your game, a magical POW stat for example. Or for saves the mutants and masterminds physical damage save.

 

[Massawyrm]

Uh, yeah...I think you have some points about multi-genre play

However, Superhero play is one genre that I feel fits d20 like a glove. Sadly, I feel that both the Hardcover distributed books and may of the PDF versions floating around for charge or for free kinda missed the point (or really missed th point in some cases.) D&D, after all, is a game about super heros...albeit super heroes set in a different time, super heroes that don't wear spandex, super heroes that aren't born or created in accidents. These are those rare individuals that cleave vicious monsters in two with swords, that summon up flashy displays of might with a few household ingrediants, that weild magical powers gifted to them by the gods. We've just been playing it for so long the concept of these characters being 'super-heroic' has become passe.

The Concept of Four Color super hero role playing really doesn't need to stray far from the core system. Super heroes usually don't have to deal with specific damage, so the HP system can remain fully intact. The CR system is a perfect way to judge experiance gained from battles against other super powered foes, much better in fact than most system which gage such differences by a Much weaker, weker, equal, greater and Much greater scale, so that works great. The tactical combat rules, feat system and skill systems are perfect for superheroes. There are only a few small things that need to be tweaked to make it a perfect fit with (complete compatibility with most every comic book hero or villian) modern superhero roleplaying.

The problem I've seen emerging is that most groups of people putting these projects together keep trying to bring in point buy systems, which completely alters the system altogether. I have nothing against point buy systems. Gurps, both Mayfair Games and West End games DC Heroes versions, Champions...all great point buy games. But they were completely designed, every single rule in them, to be run within a point buy system. d20 is not a point buy system. It is a system based on the roll of stats and the building upon a character through those stats. Power systems, power acquisition and power development need to base their origins with that notion, not on the notions of the flexibility of other game systems. Too much of what I've see are not rule additions. They are rule replacement. Replacing entire chunks of the game, borrowing the combat mechanics and putting the d20 logo on it. Sorry guys. I like Green Ronin and Guardians of Order alot. I mean really alot. GOO's Tri-stat system is great fun for very comic booky, non specific, more imagined combat and encounters. But the point buy system for d20? That's just not d20.

Conversions should be simple, easy to explain to verteran players and not involve calculators except on rare occasions when specifics of game play or weight are brought into play. The d20 system is about simplicity, beautiful simplicity, and a structure we are all familiar and in love with. There need to be multiple heroic classes, not just one, classes that aren't too broad and aren't too specific either. There need to be prestige classes for those rare, specified character classes. And heroes, for the most part, shouldn't all be developing new powers as they go. There should be a solid power selection at creation with powers that develop and become more useful over time.

And this can all be done within the framework of the d20 system, without serious alterations.

<Kicking away the soapbox>

Massawyrm

 

[sfgiants]

I agree to some extent to the above poster with a couple exceptions. I like point buy systems and think that with super powers this is sometimes a good way to go. With a class based system it is hard to balance super powers on a level by level basis. However, using a point buy powers system a lot of this can be minimized. One of the biggest problems with a supers game is balance: d20 handles balance well, it just needs to be tweaked to allow the variety inherent to a supers game.

 

[RangerWickett]

Four-Color to Fantasy basically uses core D&D rules except for the few things that need to be added to a superhero game. We add a system for balancing super powers with the core classes, and provide rules for using huge objects as weapons, maneuvering at high speeds, etc.

But the class-level system is practically the same; we just added two new classes. The Hero provides super powers the same way a sorcerer provides spells. The Specialist covers all the generic characters who just have skills and knowledge, not fighting ability or super powers. You can still use CR to determine how difficult an encounter will be.

And here's my main rant. Yes, technically, a lot of super-powered characters from comics wield powers that go beyond the scope of 20th level. But you don't need to. The feel of the game will be the same pretty much regardless of what level you make all the characters, as long as you run the game well.

Fr'instance, say you want to make the Justic League, and you decide to play with the characters being 10th level (technically, even Hawkman is probably at least 20th level, and Supes is easily 50th or higher). You could slightly tone down their powers, and slightly tone down their villains, but it would be just as easy to create the sense of these guys being the main movers and shakers in the world of superheroes.

What I'm saying is that you don't have to really give your characters the ability to pick up skyscrapers to make them feel as if they're superheroes. I would be perfectly fine with never going past 20th-level.