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D&D 5E The "Lawful" alignment, and why "Lawful Evil" is NOT an oxymoron!

Celebrim

Legend
I'm still not even sure what the 'norm' is for an alignment distribution function.

It's a demographics issue. The function is something that the DM determines (if he's in to that sort of world building) for a species or a region or whatever other population he selects. There is no point at this time explaining the reasoning that lead up to my joke, nor why I think it's funny. Obviously the joke failed, even as an illustration.

It's not neutral, as few characters select neutral.

I think you mean to say few players select neutral. I wasn't talking about PC's, but rather NPC's.

I'm my experience, it's neutral good or chaotic good, because I generally end up playing with people that want to play good characters but don't want to be beholden to anything except themselves. So my 'norm' falls heavily on the good side, and is tilted towards chaotic. What's the norm in your games? I'd be surprised if it was neutral.

In most groups I play in, the mode tends to be either CG or CN, though N is quite popular. I have been in groups where NG was the mode and LG and CG were equally common, and playing N or CN would have been considered edgy. I can remember no PC ever being either LN or LE in 30+ years of play. This doesn't surprise me much, given the very hard skew toward extreme individualism which is currently scene in Western morality.

The current group
Sheet says NG. Player is playing character as LG. If it ever came up, I'd put LG on the sheet. This is fine, as the character is a Champion of a LG deity (effectively a Paladin).
Sheet says NG. Player is playing character as N, but not sufficiently to precipitate a moral crisis.
Sheet said CN. Player consistently played character as CE. Sheet now says CE. Arguably, biggest issue here is the CE intelligent sword whose influence player is not resisting.
Sheet said NG. Player is consistently playing character as NE. Sheet now says N, and further play will probably force me to change sheet to NE. Player may potentially come into mortal conflict with Champion, if Champion ever figures out IC that character is using a ghost as a weapon. Character started out as nature shaman and is rapidly turning into full blown scary death witch.
Sheet says CN. Player plays character as CN. (Yay!)
Sheet says CG. Player plays character as CN.

However, the alignments of protagonists don't tell us much about the demographics of the human race generally. We would expect protagonists to usually be idealists of some sort, with not only above average ability but above average motivation and compulsion to act. In general, D&D has always asserted that on the whole, the human race gravitates toward neutrality (unlike say elves, where the norm is CG). In my campaign, I would assert that humanity is "usually Neutral", and that encompasses probably around 2/3rds of all NPCs. In a typical nation, no more than 3 in 20 would be good aligned, although some societies skew in different directions. The Champion is probably more 'good' and pure than any 1 in 20000 individuals. And he's played that way thankfully.

Suffice to say though, if you think action can be categorized and that's the easy part, then I'm pretty sure any sort of math you'd want to do to analyze things would be trivial by comparison.
 

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Ovinomancer

No flips for you!
It's a demographics issue. The function is something that the DM determines (if he's in to that sort of world building) for a species or a region or whatever other population he selects. There is no point at this time explaining the reasoning that lead up to my joke, nor why I think it's funny. Obviously the joke failed, even as an illustration.
Huh. I wasn't even aware it was intended as a joke. Sure, no problem, it's gone.


I think you mean to say few players select neutral. I wasn't talking about PC's, but rather NPC's.
In that case, the probability function is certainly not neutral. Neutral is not a common alignment in most worlds (thinking official worlds, not homebrews, because, like, how would I know?).


In most groups I play in, the mode tends to be either CG or CN, though N is quite popular. I have been in groups where NG was the mode and LG and CG were equally common, and playing N or CN would have been considered edgy. I can remember no PC ever being either LN or LE in 30+ years of play. This doesn't surprise me much, given the very hard skew toward extreme individualism which is currently scene in Western morality.

The current group
Sheet says NG. Player is playing character as LG. If it ever came up, I'd put LG on the sheet. This is fine, as the character is a Champion of a LG deity (effectively a Paladin).
Sheet says NG. Player is playing character as N, but not sufficiently to precipitate a moral crisis.
Sheet said CN. Player consistently played character as CE. Sheet now says CE. Arguably, biggest issue here is the CE intelligent sword whose influence player is not resisting.
Sheet said NG. Player is consistently playing character as NE. Sheet now says N, and further play will probably force me to change sheet to NE. Player may potentially come into mortal conflict with Champion, if Champion ever figures out IC that character is using a ghost as a weapon. Character started out as nature shaman and is rapidly turning into full blown scary death witch.
Sheet says CN. Player plays character as CN. (Yay!)
Sheet says CG. Player plays character as CN.
Yikes, sorry?

Of course, that's merely born out of my prejudice against playing in or running evil games. I've played in exactly two games (out of about 9 that I recall) were evil worked out, and both of those were with fantastic people that agreed that evil was something done outside the party, not to the party. Well, that's loosely true, our evil actions often screwed over the whole party, but they weren't aimed at the party. And it was entirely banal evil; very much small 'e' evil, not big 'e' Evil.


However, the alignments of protagonists don't tell us much about the demographics of the human race generally. We would expect protagonists to usually be idealists of some sort, with not only above average ability but above average motivation and compulsion to act. In general, D&D has always asserted that on the whole, the human race gravitates toward neutrality (unlike say elves, where the norm is CG). In my campaign, I would assert that humanity is "usually Neutral", and that encompasses probably around 2/3rds of all NPCs. In a typical nation, no more than 3 in 20 would be good aligned, although some societies skew in different directions. The Champion is probably more 'good' and pure than any 1 in 20000 individuals. And he's played that way thankfully.

Suffice to say though, if you think action can be categorized and that's the easy part, then I'm pretty sure any sort of math you'd want to do to analyze things would be trivial by comparison.
But I wouldn't do math. I'd look at the data and say 'yep, mostly this.'
 

pemerton

Legend
So how do you make sure at the table that Players are not confused about who is Neutral and who is Evil?
At the table the players decide who is good, who is evil and who is not based on their own judgements of those characters' behaviours, coloured by their knowledge of the default cosmology that we use in our 4e game.

This sometimes leads to disagreement. For instance, some of the PCs think that the Raven Queen is evil (ie a wicked person) while other PCs disagree. (In the rule book she is described as Unaligned. In the 4e modules she is presented as basically beneficent. In our campaign, as the backstory around her has developed, she has emerged as rather self-serving if not actively malevolent.)
 



Celebrim

Legend
Lawful Evil is any megacorporation or a landlord that throws out a widow with 5 kids in the winter because she couldnt pay the rent.

If this amounts to, "We follow the rules without mercy.", then yes this is either LE or LN.

But LE is even more likely to have been proactive here and thrown her out when she became a widow because women aren't allowed to live alone but must have the protection of a male relative or husband. If such a protector couldn't be found, they would have likely assumed that the best solution is to enslave the widow and her 5 kids to ensure that they neither created the social ill of starvation or beggars nor created the social ill of indebtedness. And if they could not be enslaved, then death by exposure would have not been something that happened by accident, but an end actively sought after to decrease the surplus undesirable population - shipping these undesirables to a work camp or death camp to prevent them from tainting the valuable portion of the population.

Note that in even the LE and LN case, that there was not some social role that a widow with 5 children was not to be reassigned to after losing their current station would be seen as a societal failing. In a LN society, the landlord isn't wrong (and is indeed right) for throwing out the renters that can't pay rent. The landlord himself after all only has usury of the property that rightfully belongs to someone of higher station, and so would be showing poor stewardship to give the property away when the only reason he has a right to it at all is to use it for the benefit of his liege. But the society would be wrong if there didn't exist some work house, poor house, orphanage or other institution for the destitute to resort to (even a prison or slavery). This institution would and should by no means be a merciful one, merely a means by which the least valuable persons to society could properly retire to so as to avoid burdening the society unduly and perhaps show their worth by eventually returning to a productive caste. Indeed, the LE society would probably make the institutions harsh on purpose, both to discourage anyone from resorting to them and to punish those that did. Indeed, in some since the widow and child would be blamed for her state and would be seen to deserve ill-treatment. But regardless, if these institutions didn't exist, and they wouldn't in a chaotic society, then a lawful evil society or person would be appalled. Conversely, in the CN society, they'd probably be appalled that the widow wasn't legally allowed to prostitute herself to pay her expenses without facing ostricization. Only the CG or NG society would expect the landlord to bear the burden of a rentless tenant out of charity. The LG society would probably devote a certain percentage of its resources toward creating living quarters for charity cases, but would largely expect the widow's relations to bear the burden of her upkeep.

However, it's also possible for a miser to have CE motives regardless of the society around him. That is, he's not concerned about throwing the widow out because he thinks she deserves it, or because society says he should or has the right to. He throws the widow out because it costs him money, which in turn costs him comfort or power. You can think of its as the LE landlord would be appalled that someone would throw a widow and 5 kids out who was paying her rent, simply because someone else offered to pay more for the property because as a rent payer she deserved the property, where as a CE landlord would be appalled that someone wouldn't throw out the widow when a better offer was on the table simply because greed. Whereas conversely, the LE landlord would still throw a widow out who bribed him not to, where as the CE landlord would of course not. But neither would be acting out of kindness in either case, because they are evil. Not that a person of an evil disposition couldn't be kind on rare occasions, but it would be out of character and provoke a sort of moral crisis. That is, they'd feel guilty for being kind, and would tend to upbraid themselves for their weakness.

Indeed, the lawful (evil) society is likely already organized to prevent the situation you describe, with substantial rent controls in place and properties classified according to the caste of person who is allowed to rent them. The lawful situation is more likely to be something like, "Widow Douglas. This property as you know is a class 7 residential dwelling, and as you have no husband you are not entitled to more than a class 8 dwelling. Either you must take a husband before the end of the month, or a new dwelling will be assigned to you. I suggest going to the Ministry of Work immediately, to put your name on a waiting list to receive employment. Also, I suggest you consider selling some of your children, as you won't be able to support them in a class 8 salary even if one is available." That description is anachronistic in most fantasy settings, but while far from the language it is not that far from the reality of feudalism. The question of whether she could pay is irrelevant, since in a strongly lawful society it would be obvious that she couldn't, since any unexpected income that would allow her to pay would have to have come from an illegal source anyway.

In the middle ages most areas were organized along slave/master tenant/lord relationships. Serfs did not own the land they worked, which in theory belonged to the lord. But a higher caste serf couldn't (easily) be dispossessed of the right to use that land, even if they failed to pay their rent. The lord could in effect force the tenants to pay any sort of fine he liked to recover the lost rents, but he couldn't legally throw the serf off their land. And even in cases where the lord had a legal right to dispose of the legal contract with the serf, they'd seldom actually do so because demoting the serf to full slave meant that though you had a right to all their labor, you also had a responsibility to take care of them. If a serf starved, it was their fault. If a slave starved, it was your fault. Also, it tended to make the rest of your serfs more restive.

UPDATE: I realize rereading this, that I should have probably made the CG criticism of the situation where the landlord throws the widow out more clear. The CG person examining the situation would say that the reason the landlord threw the widow out, is that the government gave the landlord no real choice in the matter, since the landlord owed the government taxes on the property that he had to pay regardless of how he used it. As such, the landlord did not really own the property and could not dispose of it how he wanted to - even if he was charitably inclined - because the government only allowed him to keep the property on the stipulation that he makes it profitable to the government. (CG argues that to the extent you should be taxed at all, it's never on the ownership of something, which would make the one collecting the tax the true owner, but solely on the use.) If the landlord had chosen to keep the widow in the property, then he would have done so at the risk of being made destitute (by the government which would insist on collecting taxes on the property even when it provided no income) and exposing himself and his family to the same risks. So of course, under this circumstance, you couldn't expect many people to heroically resist authority by being charitable since true charity is something of an anathema to most lawful societies (that will insist most benevolence has to come from not from individuals, but be handed down from legitimate authority as a benefice, thus solidifying the need for the authority and the reason to propitiate it). And while the CG person would naturally see the LG society as being less depraved than the LE society, it would judge both to have the same basic flaw. Conversely, the LG argument would go that you can't rely on individuals since individuals are inherently selfish and will at best only take care of their own, and too many will fall through the cracks and be abandoned.
 
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LE is honor but without justice for the weak ones. To be evil is to cause a serious injustice and/or horrible actions againts dignity of sentient creatures.

My house rule is adding allegiance to aligments, spells and powers with aligment keys are allowed to hurt enemies with same aligment but different allegiance, for example fatherland or religion. Even evil societies need to share a common allegiance like tribe, race, cult or nation to survive bigger enemy groups.
 

Starfox

Hero
Late in the discussion, have not read everything. Sorry if this is repetition. I'm describing both lawful and chaotic in rather negative terms here, as I feel it is in the negative stereotypes we can find what law and chaos is when push comes to shove. And yes, these are my personal views on the subject.

I am strongly opposed to equating lawful with either honorable or rule of law. To me, lawful is collectivism, putting society over the individual. A good lawful creature tries to improve society, an evil one attempts to climb at any cost and exploit those beneath her.

Likewise, chaotic does not mean dishonorable. In fact, chaotic creatures often have a lot of honor, and express themselves through various spurious codes of honor that really are egotistic ways of self-aggrandizement.

Rule of Law can be just a chaotic as it is lawful. In a lawful society, there is little need for written laws. Instead you have moral authorities and a pervasive moral code that strikes down on anything errant or out of the ordinary. Rule of law and the written laws that goes with it is in fact a strong protection for the individual, limiting what society can do against an individual.

I'm from Sweden, a rather rigidly lawful society. Laws here are used as a defense, sometimes a paltry one, against the pervasive work ethic we have. I think the more lawful the society you live in is, the more this way of looking at law vs. chaos makes sense.
 
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seebs

Adventurer
I think "rule of law" or at least "some sort of rigid structure" is pretty important. It's just that lawful evil would rather subordinate people to laws, while lawful good thinks that laws exist to benefit people. It's not about benefit to society; it's about benefit to self.
 

Shasarak

Banned
Banned
I never saw Chaotic as being dishonourable but rather each individual could be honourable or not as they saw fit (or rather as per how good or evil they are)
 

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