D&D 5E The Magical Martial

[FrogReaver]

If versatility were a form of power in D&D, casters would be higher level than non-casters.

Might should be. But regardless, versatility is a form of power.

 

[CreamCloud0]

If versatility were a form of power in D&D, casters would be higher level than non-casters.

is there not dozens upon dozens of threads complaining about that very issue that casters are vastly more 'powerful' than martials and that they are not at all equal past like, 8th level if that.

there was a very meaningful reason the classes had different EXP progressions in earlier editions.

 

[Micah Sweet]

by existing as part of a fantasy world.

i know this is an answer that doesn't satisfy you but it doesn't need to, it's still an explaination.

You are correct. To me that is a woefully inadequate explanation, to the point of being very similar to, "because I say so" from my perspective.

 

[Stormonu]

I like this. I don’t think it’s an approach that has been tried before. I think level 1-10 is mostly right. So maybe not much work there? The real question is what martial capabilities from 11-20?

My thoughts go back to the old “name” level at 9th of 1E/2E. Personally, that’s where I’d pin the gold medal Olympist and “masters” of their craft at - and they can do their schtick reliably with their eyes closed. Above that is the innovators and prodigies who push the bounds of what is feasible and make it look easy. Conversely, play tends to sit at around 5-8th level, so that’s where I’d like to see the “mundane” tapping into those aspirations of what a master can do, they just can’t do it as reliably.

Going up to 20th is enough for me, it takes a long time to even get to that level (if you do) as is. The only thing is that I think both sides - magical and non-magical abilities should cap out at the same level and leave characters that follow either path somewhat equivalent in ability. Magicals may be powerful but limited in how often they can do something and more narrow in their suite of abilities . Nonmagical may take more effort to get similar results, but it has more repeatability and a broader palette at a lower level of effect.

 

[Micah Sweet]

is there not dozens upon dozens of threads complaining about that very issue that casters are vastly more 'powerful' than martials and that they are not at all equal past like, 8th level if that.

there was a very meaningful reason the classes had different EXP progressions in earlier editions.

Blame WotC for that. I liked the different xp tables classes had in the TSR editions.

 

[grimmgoose]

I'm very much on the side of "martials should be supernatural in my superhero fantasy game", but the other side really loses me when they say, "martials can already do cool things! They can shove! And grapple! And jump!" as if that isn't something a 5-year old can do.

 

[dave2008]

I would still recommend that you keep casters mostly as they are. Unless you are wanting to scale them down by a lot. Which I don't recommend.

Otherwise, you really need to tackle the question of "what does it mean to be level 10". You can make a game where Thor in the first Marvel Movie is a level 10 character, or one where John McClain is a level 10 character. It just seems easier to me, to start with where we have fairly solid footing.

Well I don't believe magic/spells are on a solid footing. I believe they are quite out of whack actually. So if I am redoing magic too, I would like to start with what I can know - i.e. mundane abilities and then build off of that.

 

[Uni-the-Unicorn!]

And the Jump ability check strictly limits how far and high one can jump.

Hence the problem I have with it.

I just read the rules again and the jump action describes what you can do with no check. If its longer or higher than the prescribed distance (or if there is an obstacle) then you need a check. Seems like we have been doing it correctly and feeling empowered all along!

Spoiler: Jumping

Jumping​

Your Strength determines how far you can jump (bold red emphasis mine):
.

Long Jump. When you make a long jump, you cover a number of feet up to your Strength score if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing long jump, you can leap only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement.

This rule assumes that the height of your jump doesn't matter, such as a jump across a stream or chasm. At your DM's option, you must succeed on a DC 10 Strength (Athletics) check to clear a low obstacle (no taller than a quarter of the jump's distance), such as a hedge or low wall. Otherwise, you hit it.

When you land in difficult terrain, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity (Acrobatics) check to land on your feet. Otherwise, you land prone.

High Jump. When you make a high jump, you leap into the air a number of feet equal to 3 + your Strength modifier (minimum of 0 feet) if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing high jump, you can jump only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement. In some circumstances, your DM might allow you to make a Strength (Athletics) check to jump higher than you normally can.

You can extend your arms half your height above yourself during the jump. Thus, you can reach above you a distance equal to the height of the jump plus 1 1/2 times your height.

In fact, the rules under ability scores support this as well (bold red emphasis mine):

Spoiler: Strength Checks

Strength Checks​

A Strength check can model any attempt to lift, push, pull, or break something, to force your body through a space, or to otherwise apply brute force to a situation. The Athletics skill reflects aptitude in certain kinds of Strength checks.

Athletics. Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming. Examples include the following activities:

• You attempt to climb a sheer or slippery cliff, avoid hazards while scaling a wall, or cling to a surface while something is trying to knock you off.
• You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump.
• You struggle to swim or stay afloat in treacherous currents, storm-tossed waves, or areas of thick seaweed. Or another creature tries to push or pull you underwater or otherwise interfere with your swimming.

 

[Vaalingrade]

I just read the rules again and the jump action describes what you can do with no check. If its longer or higher than the prescribed distance (or if there is an obstacle) then you need a check. Seems like we have been doing it correctly and feeling empowered all along!

Spoiler: Jumping

Jumping​

Your Strength determines how far you can jump (bold red emphasis mine):
.

Long Jump. When you make a long jump, you cover a number of feet up to your Strength score if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing long jump, you can leap only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement.

This rule assumes that the height of your jump doesn't matter, such as a jump across a stream or chasm. At your DM's option, you must succeed on a DC 10 Strength (Athletics) check to clear a low obstacle (no taller than a quarter of the jump's distance), such as a hedge or low wall. Otherwise, you hit it.

When you land in difficult terrain, you must succeed on a DC 10 Dexterity (Acrobatics) check to land on your feet. Otherwise, you land prone.

High Jump. When you make a high jump, you leap into the air a number of feet equal to 3 + your Strength modifier (minimum of 0 feet) if you move at least 10 feet on foot immediately before the jump. When you make a standing high jump, you can jump only half that distance. Either way, each foot you clear on the jump costs a foot of movement. In some circumstances, your DM might allow you to make a Strength (Athletics) check to jump higher than you normally can.

You can extend your arms half your height above yourself during the jump. Thus, you can reach above you a distance equal to the height of the jump plus 1 1/2 times your height.

In fact, the rules under ability scores support this as well (bold red emphasis mine):

Spoiler: Strength Checks

Strength Checks​

A Strength check can model any attempt to lift, push, pull, or break something, to force your body through a space, or to otherwise apply brute force to a situation. The Athletics skill reflects aptitude in certain kinds of Strength checks.

Athletics. Your Strength (Athletics) check covers difficult situations you encounter while climbing, jumping, or swimming. Examples include the following activities:

• You attempt to climb a sheer or slippery cliff, avoid hazards while scaling a wall, or cling to a surface while something is trying to knock you off.
• You try to jump an unusually long distance or pull off a stunt midjump.
• You struggle to swim or stay afloat in treacherous currents, storm-tossed waves, or areas of thick seaweed. Or another creature tries to push or pull you underwater or otherwise interfere with your swimming.

Oh, cool.

So what sort of stunts does that allow md-jump? How 'unusually long' as that jump going to be and what's the Dc for it?

Ask you DM? Oh, so not empowered on the player side at all and not consistent across tables like I've been talking about this whole time?

Yeah. So I don't think you're addressing what I'm talking about.

 

[Stormonu]

Unfortunately, it doesn’t give you any DCs for jump distances - just for clearing obstacles or landing on your feet afterward.

You can possibly assume the distances above are from “taking 10”, but it’s not a guarantee - it could be higher or much lower (say 5, because it’s “easy” to get those distances). And because Long Jump uses your ability score, not the modifier, you’ve got to do some translation between the two. And have fun with high jump’s 3 + Str modifier.