D&D 5E The Misrepresentation of Charisma

[Willie the Duck]

Appreciate the tongue in cheek.

Certainly not advocating charisma over constitution unless it serves the character class mechanics or character story telling.

I'm glad you caught it. I'd hoped that this thread was made with self-awareness, since the "other people don't get..." is a pretty well understood now as a false attribution to hypothetical others, and the what-is-charisma argument is so old it could have grandchildren.

That said, why now? Why 5e? 5e has 4 skills based on Cha, 3 of which are routinely lauded as better than any other skills except stealth and perception. 5e has 4 classes which are Cha dependent. 5e has turned down the power level compared to 3e (or maybe even 2e) such that things like diplomacy and negotiation would be considered much better plans than jumping into combat at the drop of a hat. I would think 2e would be the era to argue that Charisma was a dump stat.

 

[Yunru]

Group checks are for when a number of individuals are trying to accomplish something as a group, so it would require a fictional action declaration along those lines. I'm not a math guy, but the rules say "in such a situation, the characters who are skilled at a particular task help cover those who aren't," so the intent appears to be that a group check would not be a penalty. Someone smarter than me will have to say whether the math supports that intent. My experience at the table says that it does since you mitigate the risk of that one guy failing the check and blowing it for everyone else at the table.

Sure, which is why it's great. If one (or maybe even two) have a charisma deficiency, then it might not have a big impact, but if the majority of the party are lacking... well characters are strengths and weaknesses, and they just encounter a result of their group weakness.

 

[knasser]

Charisma is force of personality, imo. Darth Vader has very high Charisma - people rush to do what he tells them. It's not because he is attractive, but he does look imposing as Hell and have a real aura of command.

Charisma can be represented in many ways.

 

[Warmaster Horus]

Succeeding in a Charisma saving throw is not a beauty contest. It's the PC's force of personality and ego attempt to triumph over something that challenges it.

 

[iserith]

Sure, which is why it's great. If one (or maybe even two) have a charisma deficiency, then it might not have a big impact, but if the majority of the party are lacking... well characters are strengths and weaknesses, and they just encounter a result of their group weakness.

I would expect a group entirely deficient in Charisma to avoid making too many action declarations that would potentially trigger a Charisma check in the first place or to use what resources they have (including player skill) to obviate the need for a check at all by removing uncertainty from the equation. That would just be smart play in my view, given a party with this deficiency. Another strategy would be to angle for advantage by figuring out the NPC's personal characteristics during the interaction (possibly as a result of a successful Wisdom (Insight) check) and using them in a clever way. I know I always give my Charisma-deficient characters proficiency in Insight if I can for exactly that reason. It allows me to contribute to a social interaction challenge in a pretty big way.

As well, even a character with a low Charisma and no proficiency with social interaction skills has a decent shot of being successful if the DC the DM sets is reasonable. Further, a group check requires everyone in the group to be participating in the same action declaration. The players could just choose not to do that and the DM doesn't have much of a basis for calling for a group check in my opinion.

 

[FormerlyHemlock]

I just interpret physical attractiveness as basically a function of Constitution.

Want to seduce someone physically into wanting your body? Roll a Constitution (Persuasion) check.
Want to seduce someone to taste of the forbidden power you're offering them? Roll a Charisma (Persuasion) check.

 

[BookBarbarian]

I have toyed with the idea of making an extremely ugly but very high charisma character. He would use every opportunity to put his ugly face into someone else's face and smile his ugly smile at them. They would in turn bend over backward to do what he wants just to get his repulsiveness away from them. Ugly as sin but a forceful personality that gets what he wants out of people.

Like Sand dan Glokta from the First Law Trilogy.

 

[pdzoch]

That said, why now?

Agreed, this may be a tired topic. I do expect my new and younger player to latch on to easy tropes, archtypes, and stereotypes. However, everytime I see the comeliness representation of charisma in source materials, published adventures, or other materials, it causes my eyes to roll. At least 4e, through its rather clunky skills challenge mechanism, sought to make the non-combat events more important in its use of the skills, including all the charisma based ones. I still see that the crunch provided in many adventure materials tend to focus on elements to support combat and exploration in order to move the plot, that is not a bad thing. There just appears to be a missed opportunity to maximize the impacts of charisma (good or bad, and in its various forms) in the game. And when it does appear, it is base upon the beauty concept instead (then my eyes roll). There may be better stuff out there and I just haven't seen it.

 

[jayoungr]

Our game includes a comliness score in addition to the charisma score as social attributes. For us the difference is that comliness is passive, it comes into play simply by walking into a room. Charisma is active, you have to speak, sing, or do something that attracts attention.

We do that too. Comeliness hardly ever comes up in-game, but it's a fun addition to characters. I have also sometimes randomly rolled comeliness for NPCs.

 

[lowkey13]

*Deleted by user*