D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

[Remathilis]

I'll go back to a question you haven't answered. If you want to play a tortle is there any "compromise" that doesn't end up with you playing a tortle?

You have framed the issue where either the DM wins and the player loses or the DM loses and the player wins. That's not a compromise, that's capitulation. So let me answer your question with another: what are you willing to give ME in order to get your wish about me not playing a tortle?

 

[Remathilis]

As DM I have a responsibility though to make the game as enjoyable as I know how for everyone at the table. Including me.

What it is about a tortle that ruins your ability to have fun? I've been asked why my fun is ruined by not playing a tortle, why is your fun ruined by me playing one?

 

[AlViking]

You have framed the issue where either the DM wins and the player loses or the DM loses and the player wins. That's not a compromise, that's capitulation. So let me answer your question with another: what are you willing to give ME in order to get your wish about me not playing a tortle?

Have I or are you just dodging the question? Why is it important to you that you play a tortle? Because until I have that answer I can't even begin to guess what a compromise could look like. If it's for the mechanical benefit of having a shell I gave you an example of what I would consider a compromise.

 

[AlViking]

What it is about a tortle that ruins your ability to have fun? I've been asked why my fun is ruined by not playing a tortle, why is your fun ruined by me playing one?

It doesn't fit my vision of the world. Why do you want to run a tortle and not one of the half dozen races I do allow?

 

[Remathilis]

Have I or are you just dodging the question? Why is it important to you that you play a tortle? Because until I have that answer I can't even begin to guess what a compromise could look like. If it's for the mechanical benefit of having a shell I gave you an example of what I would consider a compromise.

You seem obsessed with the AC 17 shell. So lets say "you can be a tortle, but your stats are the same as other lizardfolk". Is that a compromise? I get to be a tortle in you don't deal with free full plate at level one.

 

[Remathilis]

It doesn't fit my vision of the world. Why do you want to run a tortle and not one of the half dozen races I do allow?

Why is your vision worth more than my fun?

Wer're back to DM Supremacy. Your fun is more important than mine. My choices is take-it or leave. DM Always WIns.

 

[mamba]

So I'm curious. Is there a moral difference between the roles? Or are we confessing which role we prefer under the gu

no, there is no moral difference to me, but the DM is the one putting in more work (usually by a lot), so they get more of a say than a player.

They are all still free to agree, compromise or walk away if no compromise can be found. No one is being forced into anything, but to me the DM has that bit more authority because of their position / effort put in. Consider them a primus inter pares

 

[Minigiant]

That's not working with the gm though, it's hammering the gm with an uncompromising rapid fire shotgun blast of throw away take it or leave it characters described with so little care that it makes the catchy names used to describe common heavily optimized builds in their guides sound downright Shakespearian.

That's where "something like those" fits in..

For example, the half elf ranger is because the player wants to play a character who belongs to 2 cultures. But doesn't completely fit into each. So it has tangible connections to the cultures but prefers to stay outside of civilized society and preffers nature, where it feels that it is completely unjudged.

Where the DM could say "instead you could be a human but half Northern and half Imperial and get your training in the Southern jungles."

 

[Mecheon]

Speaking of compromise ... if someone wants to play a tortle, why? The main benefit seems to be the 17 AC. So what if instead you play a dwarf that has training in clan armor that you inherited. For whatever reason you will never wear any other armor and it cannot be upgraded. It gives you an AC 17 but you lose other benefits dwarves normally get like their +1 to HP and their dwarven resistance to poison.

The main benefit of being a tortle is being a turtle guy. like. It doesn't even matter what the stats are. "Being a turtle guy" is the niche.

Playing a dwarf in armor does not satisfactorily fill the 'being a turtle' goal

Compromise always seems to mean the player gets to do what they want and the DM needs to stuff it. If I allow a tortle, do I also need to allow tabaxi, bugbears, centaurs, genasi, harengon and plasmoids? What about leonins, shifters, loxodons and grungs? After all I don't want to leave anyone out. Meanwhile I play in FR games where anything and everything is allowed and the main reason people pick a different species seems to be because of some perceived mechanical benefit.

I gotta be honest, if you're worried about people picking races for mechanical benefits? Ban humans. Just, go and ban humans. They're the overpowered race. They're the munchkin's favourite. They're the powergaming race. Humans. Not any of the other races.

There's a reason "Pick human or sometimes halfling" is how you powergamed in 5E. You're not picking tabaxi, centaurs, genasi, harengon, plasmoids, leonins, shifters, loxodons or grungs if you're wanting a mechanical benefit. Especially grungs. You're only picking bugbear if you want that one silly build that lets them have a lot of range, and chances are you're not doing that

You pick tabaxi because you want to be a cat person. You pick centaur because you want to be a centaur. Genasi? Elemental people. Plasmoids? Slime girl. So on and so forth

OK. So, I'll take the burden of proof that 5e caters to videogamey overpowered munchkin builds.

Actual 5E powergamers know the real way to powergame is always to pick Human. You don't pick other races, you pick human. That's the strongest race in 5E

All of these other races don't even come up compared to the power of the level 1 feat.

 

[mamba]

Am I entitled to think that I should believe that I should be able to play one of those, something like those*, or be convinced by the DM that although all of those are bad there is fun to be had?

I doubt there is any table / DM that would shoot all five options down. If you find one that does, let me know, until then this feels pretty moot