D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

[Dire Bare]

But you're missing the point of curation, part of the joy of a curated setting is the increased versimilitude from removing thematically redundant creatures and tightening the focus on the major components of the world. The Krynnish goblinoids and ogre races render orcs redundant and unnecessary. The tying of elves to Paladine makes drow ill-suited to the world. Adding them back in is a terrible idea, with no upside. Players should engage with the fiction rather than creating the same bog-standard D&D characters that populate the Realms.

Missing the point? No. Disagreeing with the point? Yes.

Removing orcs and drow from the Dragonlance setting is curation, but it does not increase a sense of verisimilitude, IMO. It's weak-sauce world-building by subtraction, which is a pet peeve of mine. Even in a setting that I otherwise have a lot of love for.

IMO, orcs can be added back into Dragonlance without any real effective change to the setting. Their removal or inclusion makes no real difference. Orcs, hobs, gobs, and ogres are all not 100% identical, but they are all similar enough orcs would blend right in to the Dark Queen's armies.

The traditional drow story found in Greyhawk or the Forgotten Realms doesn't fit easily into the themes of the traditional Dragonlance story, IMO. But adding in a Krynnish variant of the drow would be an additive change that would not break the campaign. IMO, of course. Similar to how elves and drow in Eberron are not the same as elves and drow in Greyhawk and the Realms.

Curating creatures and player species for a game can help build an interesting setting that feels different from the standard D&D assumptions . . . but IME, DMs who rely on world-building by subtraction end up creating pretty standard D&D settings, just without orcs or drow or what-have-you.

 

[Belen]

Sigh. Let me get the quotes...

If it Exists in D&D, It exists in Eberron
1. If it exists in D&D, then it has a place in Eberron. A monster or spell or magic item from
the core rulebooks might feature a twist or two to account for Eberron’s tone and attitude,
but otherwise everything in the Player’s Handbook, Dungeon Master’s Guide, and Monster Manual has a place somewhere in Eberron. Also, this is the first D&D setting built entirely from the v.3.5 rules, which enabled us to blend rules and story in brand-new ways.
(Eberron Campaign Setting, pg 8)

1. If it exists in the D&D world, then it has a place in Eberron. Eberron is all about using the core elements of the D&D world in new ways and interesting combinations, with some unique elements thrown in. It's still a D&D setting, so any information for players that appears in another D&D core rulebook or supplement—from the classes and races in a Player's Handbook to the new powers and other features in a book such as Divine Power—should fit right in to your Dungeon Master's EBERRON campaign. (Of course, your DM always has the final word about what parts of the D&D game are allowed and not allowed in
the campaign.)
(Eberron Player’s Guide, pg 4)

7. D&D with a Twist. Every race, monster, spell, and magic item in the Player's Handbook,
Dungeon Master's Guide, and Monster Manual has a place somewhere in Eberron, but it
might not be the place you expect. Eberron has a unique spot in the D&D multiverse, and
many familiar elements of the game play different roles in the world. In particular, mortal
creatures are products of culture and circumstances, rather than the direct influence of the gods. As a result, you can't assume that a gold dragon is good or a beholder is evil; only in the case of celestials, fiends, and certain other creatures whose identity and worldview are shaped by magic (such as the curse of lycanthropy) is alignment a given.
(Eberron: Rising From the Last War, pg 5

Where people get that Eberron isn't a kitchen sink with a twist is beyond me.

Agreed. Eberron was meant as the ultimate kitchen sink setting. We had epic battles about it here when it launched.

 

[Thomas Shey]

I should probably change "race" to species I suppose. "If you want to run another race that could pass as one of the allowed races, let me know and we can discuss options, but no guarantees."

I think if you think that will be read generally as "No other race" (as far as visual/biological structure goes) "will be permitted under any circumstances" you've been playing with the same people who you know well for too long.

Not that it really matters if I get your seal of approval or not.

You can always stop responding to me if you don't want to engage, you know.

 

[Thomas Shey]

Since I care about making the game fun for everyone I'm going to listen to feedback. But even if the majority of people wanted to run and evil character campaign I would say no. There are some things I won't compromise on.

I can see that one. Honestly I can see a lot of that on big ticket things of that nature. But the question is, let's say its something smaller scale? Do you insist on the last word on it? (At least as an alternate to pulling the plug). If not, that doesn't seem the position of a lot of traditionalist GMs for any number of reasons.

 

[Dire Bare]

I simply don't see the point of making Eberron into Generic D&D World.

Are you familiar with the Eberron setting?

The setting has very unique and new themes . . . for the time it was launched . . . but most certainly already had almost everything in D&D baked in from the start. And very explicitly stated that there was a place for everything not already described in the books.

Does Eberron have drow elves? Yes, but are those drow elves identical to the drow from Greyhawk or the Realms? No, they have a very unique, yet familiar, story and culture. The same goes for almost every element in the setting . . . it exists in core D&D, but is expressed differently in Eberron.

Do tortles exist in Eberron? I don't think they were ever described in any of the Eberron books . . . but a DM who says "No" is missing the point of the setting and being overly and unnecessarily restricting, IMO. Adding in tortles or other D&D elements hardly makes Eberron a "generic" or "kitchen-sink" D&D world.

 

[Mecheon]

no, just a regular elf living on the surface like ‘everyone else’

I am talking about the third group of aquatic elves under the ocean. I get they're an obscure bunch, but I am not talking about some random surface elf

never heard of them. There are Dargonesti that live in the sea, but they do not want to flood the surface, they are peaceful and isolationist

I had to go and look up the Dragonlance wiki which, is not a good wiki for this one. They're called the Mahkwahb. They're not the Dargonesti. They're in the Otherlands box set. Evil aquatic elves who live in the depths of the ocean, want to take over the surface (by flooding it), and even have red eyes.

If you want a drow expy, they're close enough to be servicable

If I'm running Eberron(Bleh!) or even the Forgotton Realms(where I run 95% of my games) and you show up with an orc, I'm going to be cool with it, though I'd let you know that in some parts of the Realms you will have issues and in others you won't. That way you can make an informed final decision.

However, let's say I want to run Eberron with only Tolkien races(for whatever reason) and I pitch the game to you saying, "I am going to be running Eberron, but only with the Tolkien races in it. Are you interested?" and you tell me yes, you have agreed to play one of the Tolkien races. If you show up to session 0 or 1 with an orc PC, you are starting off having lied to my face and selfishly decided to disrupt the game for everyone at the table. Nobody else lied and tried to play something that wasn't on the table. That sort of behavior is a huge red flag that marks you as a problem player who will likely clash with DM and player alike all throughout the campaign.

If you agree to the curation, you should stay within the curation you agreed to.

Just the same though, if you just say "Hey let's do an Eberron game" there's already a baseline expected set that's going to be well beyond the Tolkein bunch, if only for changelings, shifters, kalashtar and warforged, each of who have their specific little parts they play better in. Or, y'know, gnomes, who are kiiinda one of the Dragonmarked

If you're telling me "Hey we're playing Eberron but I'm cutting out some of the important races" then I'm not going to blindly say yes, I'm going to say "Well that seems a waste of the system, I'm not going to join the game"

I simply don't see the point of making Eberron into Generic D&D World.

Adding a few more races to Eberron doesn't make it Generic D&D World. Its still dealing with all of its own themes that other settings don't touch.

Plus, well, WotC kiiiiinda already made it "Generic D&D world" by making it the go-to setting for that one MMO they did, which incidentally confirms that tabaxi vaguely exist in Eberron

 

[Thomas Shey]

DM walks away you have no DM or another player has to do it.

Or, he can, you know, just accept that he doesn't need to be the final word in absolutely everything in the game. That's not required to run a game.

As for walking away--of course he can. Same as any player. But no one assumes a player will always do that every time they lose an argument, so why I assume a GM will? Why assume that's a virtue or an expected behavior there?

 

[soviet]

I think being open to different approaches, at least trying to have a conversation, not insulting or denigrating other approaches is better, yes.

Unless they want to play a Tortleman! Those people can just get the hell out, no discussion.

 

[Belen]

I simply don't see the point of making Eberron into Generic D&D World.

Unfortunately, Eberron won the content in large part because it was meant as a kitchen sink setting. It has it own twists but it was heavily marketed to allow for anything D&D.

It's a lot older now so maybe it has developed more of its own culture, but we had huge fights about the kitchen sink mentality with Eberron here on ENWorld.

PS: I am not a fan of Eberron.

 

[Zardnaar]

Are you familiar with the Eberron setting?

The setting has very unique and new themes . . . for the time it was launched . . . but most certainly already had almost everything in D&D baked in from the start. And very explicitly stated that there was a place for everything not already described in the books.

Does Eberron have drow elves? Yes, but are those drow elves identical to the drow from Greyhawk or the Realms? No, they have a very unique, yet familiar, story and culture. The same goes for almost every element in the setting . . . it exists in core D&D, but is expressed differently in Eberron.

Do tortles exist in Eberron? I don't think they were ever described in any of the Eberron books . . . but a DM who says "No" is missing the point of the setting and being overly and unnecessarily restricting, IMO. Adding in tortles or other D&D elements hardly makes Eberron a "generic" or "kitchen-sink" D&D world.

It specifically said its DMs options what to add. It does t say add everything.

I prefer adding 1-3 races to a game vs 50 and making them spotlight. That means they get free advantage/inspiration occasionally, automatic success sometimes and if any race based magic items turn up its probably for them.
Eh BG3 themed i added Gith.

Very small hard ban list mostly mechanical reasons.