D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

[HatWearingFool]

Not without substantial changes, agreed.

Two 3rd party takes on 5e: Adventures in Middle Earth and Brancalonia did "low" fantasy pretty well, but with big changes.

The former got rid of spellcasting in all classes. The latter capped character progression at level 6.

Both "felt' like very decent attempts.

The Dark Souls 5e RPG also did some interesting tweaks that could make the game a bit more "grounded", funny enough, into a more gritty yet still epic setting.

All that to say that unless you view D&D as a "toolkit" to customize, you're pretty much stuck with super heroic fantasy.

Oh absolutely the various game engines can handle a lot D20 had games that covered lots of genres and the 5e engine is certainly capable of a lot as well, but you aren’t playing D&D anymore.

 

[Arilyn]

Yeah, people keep missing that his audience wasn't D&D fans on ENWorld, but the audience for his blog and his books, for whom "MOAR" would be a bit of an in-joke.

Exactly.
Keith is writing a 2024 monster update book. He's not happy with 5.5 but unsure what his next steps will be so threw the question out to his audience:
1. Keep doing what he's doing.
2. Focus on third party supplements
3. Find a new game.
Keith's blog was not intended as a review of 2024. It is an update on his latest project, followed by some personal venting, and then the appeal to his readers. The comments over on his site have so far have been very supportive, with mixed recommendations, which I'm sure will not make his decision any easier.

 

[Minigiant]

I would like to see a little more respect for people who share his point of view (I agree with all of his points and more). I'm not an easily offended person, and I'm not having an emotionally strong reaction, but it is disappointing to see fans of 2024 treat the reasons some 2014 fans are unhappy with the 2024 changes as shallow, over-reactive, mislead, and fundamentally an inferior preference.

It's less lack of respect but more lack of understanding and confusion

Most of the changes in 2024 were to make the gameplay work as explained while being backwards compatible.

2024 more or less asked:

If Simulation of the genre produces gameplay that doesn't match the genre, should we still adhere to simulation?

2024 answered "No but keep it simple, easy to teach, and backwards compatible".

The fans of 2014 never really answered.

 

[Paul Farquhar]

• Simulation should never be a priority, and you are a thougtless idiot (at least in this point) if you think it should
• Things don't have to make sense in an RPG, and you're thinking too hard if you think they should

This has been the D&D philosophy since 1974. Some people have just been a little slow to notice.

 

[GobHag]

This has been the D&D philosophy since 1974. Some people have just been a little slow to notice.

Nahhhhh, Gygaxian Naturalism existed for a reason.... Though I guess if you're calling Gygax one.....

 

[Paul Farquhar]

Nahhhhh, Gygaxian Naturalism existed for a reason.... Though I guess if you're calling Gygax one.....

No, it didn’t.

 

[Bae'zel]

Oh absolutely the various game engines can handle a lot D20 had games that covered lots of genres and the 5e engine is certainly capable of a lot as well, but you aren’t playing D&D anymore.

What is "D&D" though? Because from reading what various OSR "purists" recounting their experiences of more "low magic" D&D, my time with those 3rd party games "felt" more like classic OSR D&D than 3e to 5e has.

edit: I ask because I've had people assure me that unless you generate characters as "3d6 in order, no re-rolls" you ain't playing REAL D&D. Or unless you allow every single character option from all official sourcebooks in your campaign, it isn't "REAL" D&D.

So I don't know what that means.

Edit 2: is D&D points of light frontier adventures? Is it purely dungeon crawling? Is it space pirate adventures in Spelljammer? Is it gothic horror mysteries in Ravenloft? Is it gonzo planes-hopping in Planescape? Is it post-apocalyptic survival in Dark Sun? Is it solving murder mysteries in Baldur's Gate? What the hell IS D&D or NOT D&D?

 

[SkidAce]

I would like to see a little more respect for people who share his point of view (I agree with all of his points and more). I'm not an easily offended person, and I'm not having an emotionally strong reaction, but it is disappointing to see fans of 2024 treat the reasons some 2014 fans are unhappy with the 2024 changes as shallow, over-reactive, mislead, and fundamentally an inferior preference.

I'm all for polite edition wars. If they weren't banned on all the forums and socially ostracized, I'd be perfectly capable of getting down in the trenches and having back and forth lively debates about the quality of edition design.

But what I'm getting so frequently from so many fans of 2024 who choose to weigh in on it is a palpable disdain bordering (if not crossing into) contempt for the very preference for 2014. I keep seeing what amounts to:

• Simulation should never be a priority, and you are a thougtless idiot (at least in this point) if you think it should
• Things don't have to make sense in an RPG, and you're thinking too hard if you think they should
• You just don't like it because it's different and you're a set in your ways grognard, rather than because of the actual effects it has on the play experience
• If you claim to understand the actual effects it has on the play experience and don't like them, you obviously are doing it wrong
• Etc

Fundamentally, if I can attempt to speak for those of us 2014 fans who are unhappy with 2024, in my opinion, which I think is educated and informed, 2024 makes foundational philosophical changes to the game which are typically more indicative of a full-edition change than a mid-edition adjust. In other words, while it is mechanically a less dramatic change, it is philosophically more akin to the change from 2e to 3e or 3e to 4e than the change from 3.0e to 3.5e. 2014 more intentionally aimed to provide a style-inclusive experience. I recognize it failed for some people, and it may not have been possible to do it perfectly. But it did attempt to, and I feel it succeeded at least as well as any other edition at providing support for a broad range of D&D play styles. By contrast, 2024 decided to forgo that intention in order to focus on better supporting a more narrow range of play styles, and did so by mechanical changes, presentational changes, and direct instructions to DMs and players.

Other than pure dismissiveness about others preferences, and perhaps some sense of vindication if ones own preferences were ones that were less supported by 2014 than by 2024, I cannot see any reason for the disdain, contempt, or dismissiveness about the objections to the mid-edition change in design philosophy in 2024. Something was changed that made plenty of intelligent, experienced fans of 2014 feel like they can no longer enjoy the D&D experience they prefer with 2024, and I'm not sure that ridicule is the best response when they express that.

Quoted for cosmic truth.
If I could thumbs up more than once I would...

 

[SkidAce]

...All that to say that unless you view D&D as a "toolkit" to customize, you're pretty much stuck with super heroic fantasy.

This has always been my position.

 

[SkidAce]

Edit 2: is D&D points of light frontier adventures? Is it purely dungeon crawling? Is it space pirate adventures in Spelljammer? Is it gothic horror mysteries in Ravenloft? Is it gonzo planes-hopping in Planescape? Is it post-apocalyptic survival in Dark Sun? Is it solving murder mysteries in Baldur's Gate? What the hell IS D&D or NOT D&D?

Yes.