D&D General The Monsters Know What They're Doing ... Are Unsure on 5e24

[Distracted DM]

But that assumes every group is using those. No one in my campaigns uses any summoning spells currently, for instance.

A lot of the changes really are pretty subtle, when you're just staring at your character sheet and focusing on making monster hit points go down to zero.

They're more dramatic in aggregate and especially in online whiteboard discussions, where everyone's trying to be a trial lawyer and bring in evidence to support their side. But that's not actually how the game is played most of the time.

Sure, but I wasn't going to list every change :'D I just had to grab a few examples. I'd think if you a changed bunch of a player's character features they'd notice the changes when they referenced them.. unless they just didn't read their sheet and kept using the old stuff cuz they didn't know their sheet had changed?

 

[DrJawaPhD]

My issue with a lot of reactions to 2024 is that I transitioned mid-campaign and my players didn't even notice right away. For that matter I barely noticed the differences, because mostly games run exactly the same.

Yeah same here. The main complaint I've heard from real-life people outside internet forums is "barely anything changed why should I pay $50 for new books that are barely different", which is definitely a valid complaint but was easily addressed once one person shared the content on DnD Beyond.

The only other complaints I've heard from a couple people were not wanting to spend any time learning new DnD rules because they didn't actually like DnD all that much and were hoping we would switch to playing <Pathfinder, Blades in the Dark, Shadowdark, etc>. This one wasn't addressable

 

[Parmandur]

more of the same what? same as 2014? not really, at least not to me.

There was a discussion about it at the beginning of this year when the first 2024 MM stat blocks were released



This is obviously not the case for every single 2024 monster, but it is a trend, and one I do not like one bit

Yeah, no, 2014 Monstere don't look any more simulationst than 2024 ones to me, the 2024 ones are just better formatted for use at the table. The math and logic of the stat blocks is the same, neither is simulating anything different to my eyes.

 

[Parmandur]

Sure, but I wasn't going to list every change :'D I just had to grab a few examples. I'd think if you a changed bunch of a player's character features they'd notice the changes when they referenced them.. unless they just didn't read their sheet and kept using the old stuff cuz they didn't know their sheet had changed?

Do your players spend much time reading their sheets...?

 

[EzekielRaiden]

I would like to see a little more respect for people who share his point of view (I agree with all of his points and more). I'm not an easily offended person, and I'm not having an emotionally strong reaction, but it is disappointing to see fans of 2024 treat the reasons some 2014 fans are unhappy with the 2024 changes as shallow, over-reactive, mislead, and fundamentally an inferior preference.

I'm all for polite edition wars. If they weren't banned on all the forums and socially ostracized, I'd be perfectly capable of getting down in the trenches and having back and forth lively debates about the quality of edition design.

But what I'm getting so frequently from so many fans of 2024 who choose to weigh in on it is a palpable disdain bordering (if not crossing into) contempt for the very preference for 2014. I keep seeing what amounts to:

• Simulation should never be a priority, and you are a thougtless idiot (at least in this point) if you think it should
• Things don't have to make sense in an RPG, and you're thinking too hard if you think they should
• You just don't like it because it's different and you're a set in your ways grognard, rather than because of the actual effects it has on the play experience
• If you claim to understand the actual effects it has on the play experience and don't like them, you obviously are doing it wrong
• Etc

Fundamentally, if I can attempt to speak for those of us 2014 fans who are unhappy with 2024, in my opinion, which I think is educated and informed, 2024 makes foundational philosophical changes to the game which are typically more indicative of a full-edition change than a mid-edition adjust. In other words, while it is mechanically a less dramatic change, it is philosophically more akin to the change from 2e to 3e or 3e to 4e than the change from 3.0e to 3.5e. 2014 more intentionally aimed to provide a style-inclusive experience. I recognize it failed for some people, and it may not have been possible to do it perfectly. But it did attempt to, and I feel it succeeded at least as well as any other edition at providing support for a broad range of D&D play styles. By contrast, 2024 decided to forgo that intention in order to focus on better supporting a more narrow range of play styles, and did so by mechanical changes, presentational changes, and direct instructions to DMs and players.

Other than pure dismissiveness about others preferences, and perhaps some sense of vindication if ones own preferences were ones that were less supported by 2014 than by 2024, I cannot see any reason for the disdain, contempt, or dismissiveness about the objections to the mid-edition change in design philosophy in 2024. Something was changed that made plenty of intelligent, experienced fans of 2014 feel like they can no longer enjoy the D&D experience they prefer with 2024, and I'm not sure that ridicule is the best response when they express that.

Being perfectly frank?

The blogpost referenced by the OP, and several posters on this very forum, have sounded exactly the same to me.

Except they're 2014 fans pissing on 2024 as bad and wrong. Like I can literally return your bullets, point for point:

• Mechanics should never be a priority, and you are a thoughtless idiot (at least in this point) if you think it should
• Things don't have to function in an RPG, and you're thinking too hard if you think they should
• You just don't like it because it's different and you're a set in your ways grognard, rather than because of the actual effects it has on the play experience
• If you claim to understand the actual effects it has on the play experience and don't like them, you obviously are doing it wrong
• Etc

I didn't even need to change the third and fourth. They're literally the same point regardless of perspective. And yes, I 100% absolutely have seen people show nothing but venomous disdain for the very idea that caring about making a game that functions well as a game, because obviously anyone with a positive number of brain cells would only care about simulation.

We see the negativity that targets ourselves most. We do not see the negativity that targets those we disagree with.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

We see the negativity that targets ourselves most. We do not see the negativity that targets those we disagree with.

I must be blind because I'm not seeing much negativity from either side here. Seems to me like pretty reasonable debate from both sides, all things considered with it being the internet and all

 

[dave2008]

§IMO too much by far. The base power could have been fueled down and a small sidebar could have covered DM's who want to dial it up. Doing that would have acknowledged both as a valid play style though

You can do that the other way too. Of course WotC has done neither.

As a DM I would rather they give me everything and then I and my group can choose to dial it down (like we have). But everything comes at this a bit differently!

 

[dave2008]

I never tracked torches or food either, but the current iteration just does not feel grounded to me. In their effort to file off any rough edges they created something that just has nothing to hold on to for me. These are no longer races and creatures in a world, they are artificial stat blocks that were placed in it to provide a certain experience. I am no longer exploring a world, I am taking a ride in Disneyland. Yes, that is exaggerated, but it is the best way I can describe the shift I perceive and how it affects my interest.

Interesting. I find the 2024 monsters generally more engaging in lively the 2014 MM monsters. Not 100%, but generally they feel more lively, engaging, and interesting to me. Everyone is different!

 

[Distracted DM]

Do your players spend much time reading their sheets...?

That's a fair point
But if he's saying "we switched systems and no one noticed the character changes" because they never look at their sheets... you didn't really switch systems if you're still letting them play by the old rules.

This isn't "the character changes are so small that they're basically the same," it's "I changed a bunch of stuff on my players sheets and now realize that they never look at their sheets, they just keep using the 2014 stuff." So maybe I just misunderstood the point he was making with his experience.

 

[DrJawaPhD]

This isn't "the character changes are so small that they're basically the same," it's "I changed a bunch of stuff on my players sheets and now realize that they never look at their sheets, they just keep using the 2014 stuff." So maybe I just misunderstood the point he was making with his experience.

I think it's more like they don't know the intricate details of either ruleset closely enough to notice the difference when their character sheet is changed while they aren't looking. Many players are like that, probably over half I'd estimate