The new Mind Flayers are here!

[Nine Hands]

i like scantily clad babes. It doesn't sell the cover but it catches my eye, and that's the whole point in doing it. You got a billion other books on the shelf and you see one that's odd, different and interesting and you pick it up. At that point the artist and the marketing dept. did their job. They stopped you from looking at one product and moved you toward picking up theirs. They did their job and it's a good job at that.

BD, your such a tool

 

[Tsyr]

Because of course, that's what non-gamers tend to think we gamers are like.

Seriously, if a person is close-minded enough that this would make up their mind about us as a whole, they aren't the sort of person I'd want introduced to my favorite hobby. You shouldn't judge books by their covers, after all, and certainly not people by the covers of their books.

Look, you can be as noble and as tollerant as you want... But don't pretend the sterotype hasn't ever existed. In some circles, sometimes, you would probably have a better result if you stood up and said "I like kiddy porn!" than if you said "I like Dungeons and Dragons!". Yes, I'm exagerating slightly to make a point, but gaming really doesn't have all that great of a rap with some people. And as much as I'd like to pretend that the world is a perfect place, In a lot of cases I have to interact with those people... those people can be my co-workers, teachers, fellow students, etc. Sometimes those people are even my friends/family! I don't want to have to *hide* what I do like it's something I should be ashamed of, but neither do I always want to deal with what comes of admitting I play D&D.

That sterotype isn't the only one that exists, no. And it's not the worst. But it's one of them. And any I can help to break up, I'll try. And I don't like it when I see things re-enforcing those sterotypes.

 

[Felon]

A large part of it, Felon, is that we were *just * starting to change the perception that RPGs are only played by the sterotypical gamer geek... IE, The Comic Book Store Guy from the Simpsons... The cheesecake art doesn't do anything but re-enforce that viewpoint.

After reading this I actually had a bottleneck of facetious remarks struggling to make it out of the starting gate. It's taken some sorting out, but here they are:

First, I'd like to nail down some dates if at all possible. When exactly were we officially just starting to change those pesky perceptions? Were they just changing them last year or last week, 'cuz if it was real recent I guess I must've been missing out on that. I know chicks--or women, or Gyno Americans, or whatever--got into Vampire: the Masquerade, but then White Wolf released all those godawful follow-ups and away the goth-girls went. Guess hob-nobbing with some smelly werewolf that can fire his claws out of his paws like blowdarts doesn't hold quite the same charm as Monsieur Lestat.

Once we've got that date covered, that brings us to question number two: when exactly did pictures of attractive women depicted in gaming products start to derail that noble struggle for respectability? Is the implication that this product has singlehandedly sabotaged those efforts? When did this dark age of sensuality descend upon us like an unholy rain of used rubbers?

Thirdly, supposing we were actually able to make that golden dream of mainstream acceptance come true, what exactly would the average gamer gain by that? I mean, even after we show them that there are hunky hipsters like yourself within the fold, there nonetheless are plenty of "stereotypical gamer geeks" (as you so contemptuously put it) out there that are overweight and unkempt and obnoxious. So, if these guys have to go on a diet and start taking showers every dad-blasted day and stop shoving little old ladies on the subway, you're gonna have to explain what's in it for us--err, I mean them. Do they get the benefit of some kind of grandfather clause after all the uber-cool RPG night clubs pop up in this Brave New World we speak of? Will we all get to slay orcs with supermodels and power brokers once our little hobby becomes trendy?

Fourth and finally, how does using sexuality to sell products distinguish gaming from other mainstream commercial industries? Don't average guys like T&A? Isn't that the whole point of Maxim, Swank, and all those motorcycle mags? If anything, doesn't a prurient interest the fairer gender serve to prove that "stereotypical gamer geeks" have the same ratio of Y-chromosomes as Joe Sixpack?

 

[Tsyr]

First, I'd like to nail down some dates if at all possible. When exactly were we officially just starting to change those pesky perceptions? Were they just changing them last year or last week, 'cuz if it was real recent I guess I must've been missing out on that. I know chicks--or women, or Gyno Americans, or whatever--got into Vampire: the Masquerade, but then White Wolf released all those godawful follow-ups and away the goth-girls went. Guess hob-nobbing with some smelly werewolf that can fire his claws out of his paws like blowdarts doesn't hold quite the same charm as Monsieur Lestat.

That's sort of like trying to ask "When did people stop thinking of black people as potential slaves and start thinking of them as potential human beings?", or "When did XXXXX fashion fall out of fashion?"... There aren't dates for that type of thing, but it doesn't mean that it doesn't happen.

Once we've got that date covered, that brings us to question number two: when exactly did pictures of attractive women depicted in gaming products start to derail that noble struggle for respectability? Is the implication that this product has singlehandedly sabotaged those efforts? When did this dark age of sensuality descend upon us like an unholy rain of used rubbers?

No, and I quite clearly said as much that this was hardly the worst sterotype out there. But it's one of them. And again, you can't put a date on it.

Thirdly, supposing we were actually able to make that dream of mainstream acceptance come true, what exactly would the average gamer gain by that? I mean, even after we show them that there are hunky hipsters like yourself within the fold, there nonetheless are plenty of "stereotypical gamer geeks" (as you so contemptuously put it) out there that are overweight and unkempt and obnoxious. So, if these guys have to go on a diet and start taking showers every dad-blasted day and stop shoving little old ladies on the subway, you're gonna have to explain what's in it for us--err, I mean them. Do they get the benefit of some kind of grandfather clause after all the uber-cool RPG night clubs pop up in this Brave New World we speak of? Will we all get to slay orcs with supermodels and power brokers once our little hobby becomes trendy?

First, I'm hardly saying I'm a perfect anything, or hip, or anything of the sort. Heck, I'm a 20-something hetero male... I like pictures like that! I'm just not sure I like them on the gaming products that I might end up having to explain to other people.

I don't care about getting "benefits" from anything... I just don't want to have to be scared of mentioning that I play DnD in certain places. I just don't think DnD should have social stigma rivaling saying "Hey, I'm a pedophile!", or "Hey, I like torturing puppies!", which it does, in places, regardless of if you see it or not.

As I said. This particular point is very minor. It's just one part of a larger whole.

And hey, if you want to be thought of as the sterotypical gamer geek, be my guest. I don't care what *you* want to be percieved as.

Fourth and finally, how does using sexuality to sell products distinguish gaming from other mainstream commercial industries? Don't average guys like T&A? Isn't that the whole point of Maxim, Swank, and all those motorcycle mags? If anything, doesn't a prurient interest the fairer gender serve to prove that "stereotypical gamer geeks" have the same ratio of Y-chromosomes as Joe Sixpack?

Ahhh, the joy of double standards. They exist everywhere.

But part of it you actualy skimmed over there, and missed it... The "average guy" probably has no problem with it. Doesn't do much to help improve the male-to-female ratio, though, does it? I'm not saying that ratio will ever be equal, I'm quite aware it will be a cold day in hades before that happens, but hey, any little bit...

And I'll close with this: My FLGS bags your purchaes in brown paper bags. But my criteria for when a product is "too far" in terms of what's on the cover is, "Would I be ashamed to walk though the mall with this book held in my hands, or in a clear plastic bag?". Most books, no, I wouldn't. Some books, though, I would. Most of the Avalanche books... The "Norse Gods" one in particular...

 

[Lord Ravinous]

EDIT:

When did this dark age of sensuality descend upon us like an unholy rain of used rubbers?

Dude, I'm frickin' cryin'.

 

[Felon]

And as much as I'd like to pretend that the world is a perfect place, In a lot of cases I have to interact with those people... those people can be my co-workers, teachers, fellow students, etc. Sometimes those people are even my friends/family! I don't want to have to *hide* what I do like it's something I should be ashamed of, but neither do I always want to deal with what comes of admitting I ___

Here's an experiment that could be fun: take the above quote and copy-and-paste into Wordpad and print it out. Hand it to someone first chance you get and don't tell them what its context is. I wonder what they'd assume about this person, who feels he has to be ashamed about who he is and what he does on his own time, and is so contemptuous towards his own peers for not trying harder to assimilate.

Maybe what we need is Gaming Pride Day. Let's start working on a rousing motto:

We're Gamers!
We're ______!
Get adjusted to it!

Whaddya think? Any suggestions?

 

[Tsyr]

I don't feel *contempt* towards anyone. Well, at least not that's relevent to this topic, anyhow...

I don't care if you don't have a problem with the art in question. I don't care if you want to see more of the art in question, really. What annoys me is your mocking of the people who *do* care, as though there opinion, because it differs from yours, is somehow wrong.

Everything I have expressed is my feelings. I've given reasons for why I feel that way. I don't care if you want to disagree with it, feeling it is not valid... hey, maybe your lucky and none of it applies to you. But don't dismiss my views just because they aren't yours.

 

[Lord Ravinous]

"Some of us are dirty, some of us are clean, some even have that natural sheen. We don't have lice, so why don't you be nice, and LET US ROLL OUR FRIGGIN' DICE"

EDIT:Motto for Gaming Pride Day.

 

[Lord Ravinous]

And as for the artwork being distastful? Well, I perfer a good lookin' chick over Grace Jones anyday. But thats just me.

 

[Felon]

What annoys me is your mocking of the people who *do* care, as though there opinion, because it differs from yours, is somehow wrong. Everything I have expressed is my feelings. I've given reasons for why I feel that way. I don't care if you want to disagree with it, feeling it is not valid... hey, maybe your lucky and none of it applies to you. But don't dismiss my views just because they aren't yours.

Let me get serious here for a second. Tsyr, I assure you that your views, your feeling, your opinions, are not dismissed simply because they are not mine.

There are some misconceptions today about opinions. The big one being that all opinions, by their very nature, are inherently valid and important and possessed of some intrinsic value. What a huge fallacy that is.

In actuality, individuals do have some onus upon them when they express an opinion to ensure that it is rational, informed, and well-supported. You know, that some real thought's been put into it, and it's not just sounding off? Of course, being silly, fallable humans, we all are given to uttering plenty of opinions that do not adhere to this criteria, so we have to cut each other a LOT of slack.

But when someone tells me that gaming companies should actually be less mindful of marketing their products towards a core demographic than it is iof appeasing the sensibilities of the non-gaming majority who do not consume these products...well, the guy who's telling me this better have his presentation of this opinion down to a tee. So far, you've been tearing up the green without touching the ball.

Gaming has never been close to gaining acceptance by the mainstream. If you think it has, can you cite some evidence of said?

Be aware that when you argue that as gamers we should sacrifice our simple pleasures in order to alleviate the prejudices of the ignorant masses who equate us to pedophiles, it comes across as little more than a mark of the low esteem that you have for yourself and your peers. Many people in a minority group chafe at being told that it's in their best interests to assimilate. It kinda smacks of Uncle-Tomism.

Bottom line: if you state an opinion in an open forum, it will not always be accepted blithely. It may well be challenged, and you will be expected to either stand & deliver or forfeit. Be prepared, my good man.