D&D 4E The New Monster Math, Explained and Expanded

[Tequila Sunrise]

O wise Head -- and anyone else who has insight into these matters -- answer me this:

You mentioned that lurkers usually get a limited attack and a limited defense power per tier. This seems a bit excessive, but aside from that...does this rule of thumb apply to other roles as well?

What should be the default recharge rate? I'm thinking 5-6 or just 6.

For instance, many skirmishers (such as wolves) do bonus damage under certain circumstances (the wolf does so if the target is knocked prone), and many, instead of having movement abilities, seem to restrict the movement of a single opponent rather than having their own movement options. (The wolf trips opponent, but it's at-will attack lets it shift up to 4 squares away; I would have to seek another example of a "controlling" skirmisher.)

Skirmisher also seems to be the catch-all category for monsters that don't really fit any of the roles. Personally I think Brute is a better catch-all, but whatever I guess.

Lurker offense and defense varies considerably, to the point where you might need two or three sets of rules for them. In addition, some lurkers blind their opponents rather than making themselves invisible (the shadar-kai gloomblade and Mr. Tsalaxa from Dark Sun Creature Catalog are examples); such lurkers are really only good against a single opponent at a time.

Yeah I've been thinking we need variant guidelines for some roles. Sometimes just for minor number tweaks; for example if I write a damage-focused ranger NPC, I'd use Artillery or Brute. In the archer's case (artillery), I'd boost AC and HP to average and knock accuracy down to average. In the dual wielder's case (brute), I'd boost AC to average and knock HP down to average.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

O wise Head -- and anyone else who has insight into these matters -- answer me this:

You mentioned that lurkers usually get a limited attack and a limited defense power per tier. This seems a bit excessive, but aside from that...does this rule of thumb apply to other roles as well?

I don't think it's excessive for lurkers. Turning invisible as a standard action is the defense, then "uncloaking" and doing bonus damage is the offensive ability. Low-level lurkers (eg levels 1-4) frequently have that exact powerset. The pseudodragon example I gave previously fits that example to a "T".

I haven't seen any consistent rule when it comes to "utility" powers for other types, other than epic solos sometimes get a lot.

What should be the default recharge rate? I'm thinking 5-6 or just 6.

When I covert normal (non-minion, non-elite) monsters, I often make recharge powers (usually 5-6, unless the character is much like a fighter or barbarian, in which case it's recharge when first bloodied) have an effect that ends when the next turn ends, or if the power does damage on a miss or has a nasty effect (save ends) then it's an encounter power.

In short, PC encounter powers often become recharge powers and PC daily powers often become encounter powers. (Not all the time; I don't think there are any PC encounter powers that do ongoing damage, but IMO, if the power's effect is just ongoing damage, it's a recharge power. Also, if a power really supports the creature's role, such as a soldier having an attack that immobilizes [save ends], I might make it a recharge power instead.)

Yeah I've been thinking we need variant guidelines for some roles. Sometimes just for minor number tweaks; for example if I write a damage-focused ranger NPC, I'd use Artillery or Brute. In the archer's case (artillery), I'd boost AC and HP to average and knock accuracy down to average. In the dual wielder's case (brute), I'd boost AC to average and knock HP down to average.

IMO, every artillery monster should have a way of doing bonus damage. I'm actually a little disappointed when I tried to replicate a draconic sorcerer (same with a wand mage) as there's no "cool way" to boost damage. The draconic sorcerer simply does bonus damage based on the second-highest stat. The chaos sorcerer "monster" I have in my card set gets a recharge 4 ability that lets him do double the usual damage boost (so +50% in total); in short, he's doing +25% damage (striker damage) on all his ranged attacks, but it's semi-random since he's a wild/chaos sorcerer.

I could post a few examples, but since it's not WotC making them, they're not necessarily balanced.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I don't think it's excessive for lurkers. Turning invisible as a standard action is the defense, then "uncloaking" and doing bonus damage is the offensive ability. Low-level lurkers (eg levels 1-4) frequently have that exact powerset. The pseudodragon example I gave previously fits that example to a "T".

Oh I see. I had thought you meant "lurker attack + lurker defense + even more limited attacks and defenses."

IMO, every artillery monster should have a way of doing bonus damage. I'm actually a little disappointed when I tried to replicate a draconic sorcerer (same with a wand mage) as there's no "cool way" to boost damage. The draconic sorcerer simply does bonus damage based on the second-highest stat. The chaos sorcerer "monster" I have in my card set gets a recharge 4 ability that lets him do double the usual damage boost (so +50% in total); in short, he's doing +25% damage (striker damage) on all his ranged attacks, but it's semi-random since he's a wild/chaos sorcerer.

I could post a few examples, but since it's not WotC making them, they're not necessarily balanced.

I'd be interested in an NPC or two. I've been thinking of posting my own take on a couple NPCs.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I don't have the Monster Builder, so the formatting on these will be odd.

Warlock, Tiefling Infernal
Level 5 Artillery; XP 200
AC 17; Fort 16, Ref 17, Will 19
Perception +2; low-light vision
Speed 6
Resist 5 fire

Traits
Bloodhunt: The tiefling gains a +1 racial bonus to attack rolls against bloodied opponents.
Ritual Caster: The warlock can master and perform Arcana rituals of 5th-level or lower.

Standard Actions
Dagger (weapon) * At-Will. Atk: +10 vs AC. Hit: 2d4+5 dmg.
Hellish Rebuke (arcane, fire, implement) * At-Will. Atk: Ranged 10; +10 vs Ref. Hit: 1d8+6 fire damage. If the warlock takes damage before the end of its next turn, the target takes an extra 5 fire damage.
Fiery Bolt (arcane, fire, implement) * Recharge 5. Atk: Ranged 10; +10 vs Ref. Hit: 4d6+6 fire damage, and creatures adjacent to the target take 10 fire damage.

Minor Actions
Warlock's Curse (arcane) * At-Will (1/round). Effect: The warlock chooses one enemy it can see. Until the end of the warlock's turn, its implement attacks deal 1d6 extra damage against the chosen enemy.

Triggered Actions
Dark One's Blessing (arcane) * At-Will. Trigger: The warlock drops an enemy to 0 hp or fewer. Effect (Free Action): The warlock gains 5 temporary hit points.
Infernal Wrath (fire) * Encounter. Trigger: An enemy within 10 squares of the warlock hits it with an attack. Effect (Free Action): The triggering enemy takes 1d6+4 fire damage.

Alignment: Chaotic evil or evil. Languages: Abyssal, Common, Supernal.

Skills: Arcana +10, Intimidate +11.

Strength 10 Dexterity 12 Wisdom 11
Constitution 13 Intelligence 17 Charisma 19

(I know demonic warlocks are supposed to be based on Con, but I can't make that leap for NPCs.)

EQ: leather armor, dagger, rod, ritual book. (The warlock may have other treasure as part of the treasure parcel.)

Rituals: Comprehend Languages, Explosive Runes (non-core), Eye of Alarm, Knock, Magic Circle, Pyrotechnics (non-core), Silence.

The key ability here is warlock's curse, which is frankly copied and pasted from a named gnoll warlock in Threats to Nentir Vale. The warlock can dish out extra damage against one opponent per round. The at-will ranged damage is pretty low, as hellish rebuke is not the greatest combat power, but with its low AC and fairly high damage output, the warlock will probably be targeted for damage every round, punishing whoever it hits with hellish rebuke.

 

[Rechan]

Various MMs have had "Leader" tacked onto any monster that had an effect that assisted other monsters. But you've created the Leader role, which lacks any explanation. Nor what the "Lead" power does.

 

[El Mahdi]

The Monster Math.

I was working in the D&D lab one night
with tired eyes and bleary sight.
When from my mind an idea began to rise
of giving monsters back the element of surprise.

(We made New Math!)
We made New Monster Math!
(New Monster Math!)
It was a DDI Smash!
(We made New Math!)
We posted it in a Flash!
(We made New Math!)
We made New Monster Math!

From the lab of the Wizards out West
to the dank crypts where the Vampires rest.
Now ghouls no longer cower in their hovels
they've all gotten a jolt from our new numerals

(We made New Math!)
We made New Monster Math!
(New Monster Math!)
It was a DDI Smash!
(We made New Math!)
We posted it in a Flash!
(We made New Math!)
We made New Monster Math!

The Zombies again are having fun,
and the party's just begun.
The guests included Demons, Devils, and Cambions
Grells, and Grimlocks, and Guardians.

The place was rockin', all were diggin' the new math found
even a Pit Fiend backed by Hell Hounds.
The Player Characters were about to arrive,
in the castle we're calling them the "Sacrificial Five"!

(We made New Math!)
We made New Monster Math!
(New Monster Math!)
It was a DDI Smash!
(We made New Math!)
We posted it in a Flash!
(We made New Math!)
We made New Monster Math!

Out from his coffin Strahd's voice did ring
Seems he was troubled by just one thing
He opened the lid and shook his fist
and said, "whatever happened to my Thac0 list?"

(We made New Math!)
We made New Monster Math!
(New Monster Math!)
It was a DDI Smash!
(We made New Math!)
We posted it in a Flash!
(We made New Math!)
We made New Monster Math!

Now everything's cool, Strahd's part of the band
as the New Monster Math sweeps across the land.
For you, the living, this math was meant too
when you arrive at hells door, you can blame it on the math (boo hoo).

(We made New Math!)
We made New Monster Math!
(New Monster Math!)
It was a DDI Smash!
(We made New Math!)
We posted it in a Flash!
(We made New Math!)
We made New Monster Math!

​

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

I want to do more work on this project, but classes keep getting in my way. Dam you, differential equations!

Minor Actions
Warlock's Curse (arcane) * At-Will (1/round). Effect: The warlock chooses one enemy it can see. Until the end of the warlock's turn, its implement attacks deal 1d6 extra damage against the chosen enemy.

I wonder why they felt the need to nerf WC? It's not like this guy can hit two targets a turn anyway, but it seems silly to add the "until end of next turn."

Anyway after seeing your warlock, and thinking about splitting the Lurker into two roles, I think we need a Striker role for monsters. (For npc strikers and those 'conditional extra damage' lurkers.)

(I know demonic warlocks are supposed to be based on Con, but I can't make that leap for NPCs.)

I've been known to take creative liberties too.

Various MMs have had "Leader" tacked onto any monster that had an effect that assisted other monsters. But you've created the Leader role, which lacks any explanation. Nor what the "Lead" power does.

Yeah, it's all in my head; I just need to sit down and write it out.

Basically the Leader is a recent role that I added to MarMon because it's the only way I feel okay about giving monsters and NPCs Healing Word type powers. I'm reticent about giving monsters and NPCs healing, but everyone seems to agree that sometimes it's just necessary. (Ex: npc clerics and whatnot.)

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I wonder why they felt the need to nerf WC? It's not like this guy can hit two targets a turn anyway, but it seems silly to add the "until end of next turn."

The point is to keep the "paperwork" down. A player only needs to keep track of their own character, including (if a warlock) their own curses. The DM needs to keep track of that and other things.

You'll notice the warlock can kill enemies it hasn't cursed (though that's unlikely) and get temporary hit points anyway. Again, the objective is to keep down the paperwork.

Anyway after seeing your warlock, and thinking about splitting the Lurker into two roles, I think we need a Striker role for monsters. (For npc strikers and those 'conditional extra damage' lurkers.)

I agree. Unfortunately a lot of artillery and skirmishers are not strikers, which means (in the latter case) they move around the field but don't do a whole lot.

As for leaders, there's so many things that leaders (and controllers, for that matter) can do I don't know if it's possible to simplify them.

 

[Rechan]

When I think about striker the traits that come to mind are relatively glass cannon - lots of damage, not too strong defensively. This should describe artillery and lurkers. I don't think a one-to-one translation of PC to NPC roles needs to be done.

I'm OK with monster roles not being a perfect mirror of PC roles. Even if I think Skirmishers can be quite meh.

Also boy do I not think monsters need any kind of healing mechanisms. If you absolutely positively need to make a Cleric NPC, then use the cleric class.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

When I think about striker the traits that come to mind are relatively glass cannon - lots of damage, not too strong defensively. This should describe artillery and lurkers.

I think that defines lurkers just fine, even if their damage is only spikes rather than consistent high damage. However, I find artillery to be quite weak compared to controllers. Artillery get a +2 bonus to ranged attacks; controllers get a +1 bonus to vs NAD attacks, giving artillery an effectively +1 bonus. That's it though.

Controllers generally have more interesting abilities and often do full damage despite inflicting painful status conditions (oh, and more hit points and AC). Artillery don't even do bonus damage. To my way of thinking, artillery should be like ranged brutes; you do high damage, but because of the advantage of being able to carpet-bomb opponents from far away, you get weak AC and hit points.

Also boy do I not think monsters need any kind of healing mechanisms. If you absolutely positively need to make a Cleric NPC, then use the cleric class.

I'm a little confused by this. While there's a set of rules for making NPCs using classes in the DMG1, their damage falls off quickly (by about 7th-level), and this was before the math fixes.

IMO, it's okay to use the occasional evil cleric with a little healing. It's not as crazy as the MM1 orcs, all of whom could heal themselves and attack simultaneously. (An entire orc raiding party who could heal themselves is worse than five orcs, one of whom is a shaman who can heal once per encounter, to my way of thinking.)