D&D 4E The New Monster Math, Explained and Expanded

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

I believe most insubstantial creatures have only half the number of expected hit points. At least that's true for some of them.

 

[keterys]

Almost none have exactly half the hit points - many have an almost semi-random number between 2/3 and full hit points, though.

Some feats, items, and energy types (ex: force) are also particularly good against insubstantial.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

The compendium has been wrong before. But, assuming that it is now the unofficial official ruling, the half damage on the majority of attacks with no guidelines on what amount of vulnerability to close and area attacks still makes them more than just your standard monster.

From what I've seen, virtually every swarm has vulnerability to close/area 5/tier. The orc swarm in Threats to the Nentir Vale is level 9 and has vulnerability 10. I think those are at least implied guidelines.

My PCs are facing swarms (at least two) in an encounter next session (two weeks or so from now). I'll report on that. They don't have a controller or AoE striker, so I expect it won't be pretty.

 

[Jhaelen]

Almost none have exactly half the hit points - many have an almost semi-random number between 2/3 and full hit points, though.

Yep, I seem to remember it's 2/3 for most. Several of the (newer) insubstantial monsters also have ways to get around the 'half damage', so it makes sense not to use exactly half hit points.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

If a group doesn't have _any_ close/area attacks, maybe they should have considered that? Much like running into radiant resistant creatures when they're all radiant.

I see your point, but I think at best we can expect a typical party to have one PC (the controller) with an at-will close/area attack. Some parties may have more, but I don't think it's reasonable to assume so of a typical party.

I am open to the possibility that I've generally over-emphasized the potency of swarm resistance though. I guess it's time for a play test!

Perhaps there should be something that describes weaknesses that would balance insubstantial or swarm keywords.

Great idea! HP reduction is the easiest, though tends to create grind. *sigh*

My PCs are facing swarms (at least two) in an encounter next session (two weeks or so from now). I'll report on that. They don't have a controller or AoE striker, so I expect it won't be pretty.

Ooh, let us know how it goes!

 

[Ferghis]

Even if Swarms don't provoke for moving into a character's square, they still do for moving past a character - so they do provoke a fair amount of the time to move into an optimal square.

I have some confusion about this. Several instances (powers, items, creatures) use the same language: they don't draw an OA for moving into an enemy's square. Sometimes they even say that they don't draw an OA for moving out of the enemy's square. But they never (as far as I've seen) say that the power or ability in question protects you from OAs when leaving a square adjacent to an enemy with the same action. For example, the Zairtatil Swarm has Speed 8 and "can enter or move through an enemy's space without provoking opportunity attacks."

In my mind, the difference between entering and moving through is that the former stops and the latter proceeds to other destinations. In that case, under RAW, the Zairtatil Swarm would move from a square adjacent to the enemy, to the enemy's square, to a square past the enemy (and none of these would draw an OA), and then potentially to another square. That last square of movement would draw an OA, per RAW. Is the entire benefit of this just to reposition around one enemy? Or string movement between enemies, but you can't actually get away from enemies?

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

My understanding is entering an enemy's square provokes an OA, unless stated otherwise. So trample (often giving Melee 0 attacks) would provoke opportunity attacks.

 

[Tequila Sunrise]

[MENTION=1165](Psi)SeveredHead[/MENTION], [MENTION=43019]keterys[/MENTION], [MENTION=79335]Arlough[/MENTION], and other interested parties:

I play tested a generic swarm today, and I have to say that the combination of its DR and auto-damage aura is pretty brutal. When the PCs charged forward to hack the buggers up, it was almost-death by a thousand cuts. Even with fairly good luck on their side, the PCs had one KO.

When the PCs mostly hung back to let the fighter soak up damage, they fared better. Only 6 out of 10 healing triggers got used (as opposed to all 10 in the first play test), and nobody got KOed. Only problem was the second melee PC who was reduced to plinking away with measly RBAs.

I played the swarms really dumb, as I think is appropriate for every real swarm I can remember. Overall, the invoker was the star of the show with his Close at-will attack. But he wasn't two-shotting anything either -- which is perhaps a good thing because often he was forced to hit allies as well as the swarms.

I guess what I'm saying is...labeling swarm DR as a 'mega-trait' may be an overstatement, but in combination with an aura I think it certainly qualifies as a mega-package.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

My PCs are going to be in real trouble though, as these "swarms" are actually army units, led by competent nobles! (The kind that give them extra attacks, although swarms don't exactly kick butt in the offense department.)

 

[keterys]

I play tested a generic swarm today.

Can you post what you tested?

Looking at some recent swarms:

Penanggalan Head Swarm, L8 Soldier, only vuln 5 close
No auto damage, though it has an interesting close / slow / slide thing going on.

Rot Scarab Swarm, L8 Soldier, vuln 10 close
_End_ in aura take 10, easily avoided.

Bloodweb Spider Swarm, L7 Soldier, vuln 10 close
No auto damage.

Icicle Swarm, L6 Skirmisher, vuln 10 close
_End_ in aura take 5 - less easily avoided by ~1 target cause it can immobilize people.

Basically, are you sure you were using modern swarm design? Cause they're really not so bad. The days of the needlefang drake swarm mockery have mostly passed

P.S. Fwiw, the two shotting I was referring to was against rot scarab swarms and bloodweb spider swarms
sorcerer flame spiral: 1d6+14 initial, 1d6+8 when it enters or starts its turn in a square adjacent to the sorcerer, plus the vuln 10 to each damage instance.
fighter come and get it: 1d6 + 5 or so initial, and pull 2 squares (plus vuln 5)

So, combine the two and you get... FS (1d6+24) + CaGI (1d6+15) + enter (1d6+18) + start (1d6+18) = 4d6 + 75 damage. Wouldn't have been enough to kill the head swarm, though, since that's only vuln 5 - but it would have also just died to the rest of the group.