The Problem of Balance (and how to get rid of it)

Hey Imaro, if you really want to kill balance, the best thing to do would be to convince WOTC that making an unbalanced game would generate more profits then a balanced game would. It all boils down to economic realities IMO.

The reason balance is a focus is because people demand balance in their games. In fact, I believe they outnumber people who don't demand balance.
 

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First of all, I didn't think we were just talking about 4E here. Sure.. I do think it's got some of the largest and most current "issues", but.. well like I said, it's a continuation of a trend I've been noticing.

What problems? That's a question I don't believe you've answered. The only "problem" I've seen brought up is that somehow (in some way that's never been explained) balance hurts creativity. I've, and other people have, already shown why this is not true. That imbalance actually impedes creativity far more than balance does.

I tend to pursue character concepts. To build out of the game, or sometimes if particular things catch my eye, to add them into a concept. I've noticed a greater tendancy for this to become frustrating, because the trade-offs I make to do so can wind up crippling in more so-called Balanced ways. I don't want to have to take the tacticaly or numericaly advantageous choices just to keep up with the foes in the game.

In 3E, I think we all know how often this happened to multi-class spellcasters. Another thing about 3E that I'm seeing happen again in 4E is the need for all the stupid little boosting items.. Ugh.. Because threats are supposedly balanced against PCs that min-max in that way, you wind up HAVING to deck yourself out with this stuff or the game punishes you for it. In 3E, this was more prevalent when it came to deffensive buffers. In 4E, it's proving more to be so with weapon and impliment pluses. I would rather an item have "nifte effects". I don't want to have to toss something nifty because it's just not hitting anymore and I need something with better pluses. Ugh. It was also true that many people found Level Adjustment in 3E to be somewhat crippling at different points, because of things being balanced to an inflated level.

If you want even more specific examples from me, personaly, I'll try to give a couple. In 3E, I had a bard who was more than a little on the chaotic side. When she came across strange new things, sometimes she just had to have them. Gnomish Swift Feet. They were from Mongoose's Ultimate Equipment Guide, and were basicaly roller-skates that buckled to your boots. They required an Exotice Device feat to use without killing yourself. Now, they weren't especialy tacticaly advantageous, especialy in our game, as we weren't using a battle mat, just asking the DM "if we could get close enough to x do y action this round". Speed only became an issue in the event of a pursuit, and obviously a pursuit if it happened there were less odds that the terrain a hand would lend itself advantageously to having wheels on one's feet. Besides.. fliers would always trump that in a pursuit anyway. Nevertheless, she just had to have Gnomish Swift Feet. :) Toward the end of her carrier, she came across the Ribbon Swords and Ribbon Daggers from Bastion's Arms & Armor. Again, she just had to have them. Despite the fact that they were both exotic, and I'd need to spend the next four levels awaiting the feats to use them properly, and the costs associated with getting enchanted versions of the swords (The cost of two magic weapons and two magic shields for a net of two magic weapons and an only-part-time-shield). Ribbon Daggers were actually no better in any fashion than regular daggers. But if you're keeping count, I've already blown 3 feats just on flavor. Those weren't the only feats I sunk into flavor in the character wither, just the ones dealing with gear, but I've gone on long enough. If you need further proof I don't mind playing "weaker" characters, I can go into said bard's race, though.

In 4E, I'm still doing the same things. I put flavor before min-maxing game mechanics, and the game punishes me for it. My only 4E character thus far had been envisioned as a bookish 2-weapon ranger (Eledrin using a longsword and spear) filling out ranged attacks with magic instead of a weapon (the more characteristic elven bow use) and some trixy utility in the form of cantrips. (I love Prestidigitation.. Always have.. Remember when they made Cantrip a proficiency toward the end of 2E instead of a spell? Love.) What I've been forced to do, however, is make Wizard the class (no other way to get the cantrips or spellbooks that I so very much want for the flavor), and paragon multiclass into Ranger in order to get any decent Ranger abilities.. (and by that I mean Twin Strike.. In order to just get Twin Strike, I need to vent 4 feats from Heroic Tier into it). And to top it off, any time time I try to do anything rangerly in combat, I get cut down, because I just don't have the hp to take a hit, and I'm forced into this "Controller" role which is nowhere near how I want this character to behave. So the more combat I'm in, the less I'm enjoying this character. I don't feel "heroic" I feel redundant, and now I'm contemplating two other characters that are either a full Ranger or a full Wizard, and therefore yes. I feel the game is forcing me to look into cookie cutter molds rather than the flavors I was aiming for. All because combat is "ballanced".

With problems of suspension of disbelief, in 4E, I'm definately looking at how someone can reload a crossbow as a free action, how a Ranger and his Animal Companion suddenly run on a slow processor when a battle starts, and how roughly 40% of halflings are stronger than roughly 40% of minotaurs. I mean.. c'mon.

Well, the closest compromise that I know if is my post upthread: Balance is good, hegemony is bad.

4e combat is fairly balanced without being extremely bland.

4e non-combat is fairly balanced while being extremely bland.

The difference is mostly in the details (four roles, maps, hit points, turns, and die rolls...versus....what, three skill checks?).

To get rid of the problem of blandness in balanced noncombat encounters in 4e, apply some measure of the combat task resolution there: turn them into combats.

Nooo.. no no no no.... Don't turn them into combat! There is enough focus on combat!
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Issue 2: There's a specific ability I want my character to have (e.g. ability to control a creature and have both me and that creature attack every round) that was possible in 3e, but they took out in 4e because it was unbalanced.

Yes.. this is kind of happening a lot. We finaly got Animal Companions back (though see thoughts regarding mysteriously slow processor).. now how about Familiars and Cohorts? The upcomming Shaman class looks to be shedding a lot of its abilities as well, sadly. And why do Rangers have to make such a choice between three different facets..? In the past, Rangers had no trouble doing all three of these.

This, too, is not just limited to 4E. One question I had all throughout 3E was "Why can't bards have Color Spray?"

Hey... that's exactly what this thread is about, and no one is claiming you can't change the game... it's when people come in and holler badwrongfun, because you don't ascribe to what they prefer in design principles (balance as a driving force) that things get heated. I'm not arguing imbalance fits everyone's needs and is objectively better... but the reverse is not true either.

This is all getting way too heated actually.... Can I have my discussion training-wheels now? .... or at least a comfy chair..
 

Hey... that's exactly what this thread is about, and no one is claiming you can't change the game... it's when people come in and holler badwrongfun, because you don't ascribe to what they prefer in design principles (balance as a driving force) that things get heated. I'm not arguing imbalance fits everyone's needs and is objectively better... but the reverse is not true either.

I dunno. I think its always harder to correct an imbalance than it is to break something balanced...

For example, we can both agree a 12th level magic user and a 12th level thief are not equal. A 12th level MU has a staggering variety of options at his disposal that the thief doesn't, nor will have. Its the reason why thieves need 1/2 the XP to reach 12th than a MU does (though table wonkiness corrects that too in the end). By 12th level, there are few things a thief can handle that the MU can't.

If you're cool with that, fine. Thread's over. If your not, then you have to begin a long process of toning down the MU and/or up-powering the thief. Perhaps you'd fine a combination that suits your group that wouldn't fix the problem in mine. Either way, it leads to endless figuring, playtesting, revising, and tinkering just to make a 12th level thief as viable as a 12th level MU. (Or you see the alternate, 12th level thieves retiring and being replaced by 11th level MUs or 10/10 MU/Thieves...)

Now, take the opposite. A 4e rogue is "balanced" against a 12th level wizard. They have their own methods and quirks, but at no point does the 12th level wizard outshine the 12th level rogue in any and all areas (combat, scouting, etc).

Perhaps you don't like that. Its easier to add more powers to the wizard (utility powers that are 24 hour invisibility, or save or die dailies, or just giving wizards x2 as many dalies as martial PCs) to create imbalance and the desired effect.

Its easier to drive on a road and chose to go off-roading than it is to stop every 20 miles to pour concrete to build the road ahead of you...
 


n 4E, I'm still doing the same things. I put flavor before min-maxing game mechanics, and the game punishes me for it. My only 4E character thus far had been envisioned as a bookish 2-weapon ranger (Eledrin using a longsword and spear) filling out ranged attacks with magic instead of a weapon (the more characteristic elven bow use) and some trixy utility in the form of cantrips. (I love Prestidigitation.. Always have.. Remember when they made Cantrip a proficiency toward the end of 2E instead of a spell? Love.) What I've been forced to do, however, is make Wizard the class (no other way to get the cantrips or spellbooks that I so very much want for the flavor), and paragon multiclass into Ranger in order to get any decent Ranger abilities.. (and by that I mean Twin Strike.. In order to just get Twin Strike, I need to vent 4 feats from Heroic Tier into it). And to top it off, any time time I try to do anything rangerly in combat, I get cut down, because I just don't have the hp to take a hit, and I'm forced into this "Controller" role which is nowhere near how I want this character to behave. So the more combat I'm in, the less I'm enjoying this character. I don't feel "heroic" I feel redundant, and now I'm contemplating two other characters that are either a full Ranger or a full Wizard, and therefore yes. I feel the game is forcing me to look into cookie cutter molds rather than the flavors I was aiming for. All because combat is "ballanced".

I'm not sure what you're asking for here. You seem to be complaining that because you put something else (flavor) above making a more powerful character, you end up with a less powerful character. Well, of course you end up with a less powerful character, that's what you were asking for.

It would be like saying, "When I decided to go out to dinner, I chose Restaurant A, because it has good tasting food, rather than Restaurant B, which was cheaper. Why am I penalized by having to pay more for my meal?"

It seems like what you're asking for is the ability to make "flavor choices" that don't hurt your character's combat ability. But more "balance" among different character classes and different builds makes that easier, rather than harder, because there are more choices that are more equal in power.

Or, to get to the point more, what makes you think a "less balanced" game would help solve your problem? If anything, it would make it worse, because if the game is less balanced, there are more likely to be a few builds that are more powerful than any other, and if you don't take one of them, then you are weaker.

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Actually, I think I understand the source of the confusion behind the "balance hurts creativity/flavor" claims. The term "balance" can refer to one of two things:

Type A: the emphasis that you, as a player, put on balance. That is, how much do you, as a player, care about having a character powerful enough to hold his own?

Type B: the emphasis that the game system puts on balance. That is, when they designed the game system, did they focus on making as many of the different classes as balanced as possible, or did they make it so certain builds/classes are more powerful than others by design?

Now, increased Type A balance does reduce your "flavor" options. By definition, increased Type A balance acts a a more stringent constraint (since you are restricting yourself to a narrower range of power) so you have fewer options. In the restaurant analogy, if you have a smaller budget for your meal, you will have fewer options for which restaurant to go to. (Note: Before anyone accuses me of the Stormwind Fallacy, note that I am not claiming that it is impossible to have a "flavorful" character who is also powerful; I am simply claiming that for people who would prefer specific options that happen to reduce their power, they obviously have to choose between having those options or having more power. In the restaurant analogy, it is not true that it is impossible for a cheap restaurant to have good food, but it is true that people with a taste for expensive food have to choose between saisfying that taste and saving money.)

However, increased Type B balance increases your flavor options. The more balanced the different "flavor choices" are (in other words, the less difference in power there is between the different flavor choices), then the more game-mechanically-suboptimal "flavor choices" you can make and still keep your power within acceptable levels. In the restaurant analogy, increased Type B balance is like having a coupon book that gives you 50 percent off all the restaurants in the area. If you had this, then you would be able to go to a more expensive restaurant on the same budget.

(For clarification, in the analogy, the quality of food is analogous to the desirability in terms of flavor, while the price is analogous to the amount of game-mechanical power sacrificed.)

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Now, AngelTheTechrat's example in his most recent post is an example of where the designers failed to achieve Type B balance, because they created a system where multiclassing in the way he wants costs a lot of feats for little mechanical benefit. (Of course, if they fixed this by reducing the feat cost to multiclass, it might break Type B balance in the other direction; certain multiclass combinations could be overpowered if they don't cost a lot of feats. Perhaps a solution would be to make certain multiclass combinations cost less than others, although that might be too complicated.)

But, in any case, AngelTheTechrat's example is as example of failure to achieve balance, not an example of balance impeding creativity/flavor.
 

To continue the discussion and analogy above, we can think of the problem in the following way. There are two basic ways that a game system can try to enable more flavor/creativity/variety in character design and construction:

Decreasing Type A Balance:

The system can be designed in such a way that it is okay for players to have wildly varying power and still all have fun. (In the restaurant analogy, this is increasing your food budget so you can go to a more expensive restaurant.) This is possible, but still good. One way of doing this is to increase character specialization, so even a weaker character is still probably specialized in at least one area that nobody else in the party is. The pitfall with this is that it tends to put the onus on the DM to make sure that everyone has a chance to shine, and requires the players' willingness to accept an uneven distribution of power.

Increasing Type B Balance:

The system can be designed in such a way that there is a large variety of flavor choices that can be made that don't have much impact on power. Then players can get the flavor they want without sacrificing balance. (In the restaurant analogy, this is analogous to getting discounts at restaurants or cooking the food at home so it is cheaper.) There are lots of ways to do this. Here is a (non-exhaustive) list:

Effect-based power building: This method allows players to build the power they want, with its cost determined by its effects. Then players can choose whatever "flavor" they want, but it is still balanced because they have to pay based on the effects. The HERO System and GURPS use this method.

Free reskinning: This method uses a list of existing powers like those in 4e, but says that you can describe them however you want, and as long as they have the same mechanical effects as before you can use it the same way. For example, if you want to be a Ranger that fires off ranged attacks in the form of magic, perhaps you could declare some or all of your bow powers to be "magic," and as long as it works the same way it did before then there is no loss in balance.
 

Nooo.. no no no no.... Don't turn them into combat! There is enough focus on combat!

The D&D combat system is basically an elaborate way to roll 1d20 and compare it and whoever gets the highest wins. It's a task resolution system.

Applying the idea of attacks, defenses, and a pool of points that get steadily depleted, to other things, focuses more attention on those things.
 

I have Hero Quest... and if I am remembering correctly, how is it balanced since your attribute (I think that's what they're called) has to relate to the particular situation in which you are using it (and it can be anything so as broad or specific as a player wants.)... as judged by the GM....

HeroQuest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are four base characters: Barbarian, Wizard, Dwarf, and Elf.

In a nutshell the characters have 5 attributes:
Attack Dice, Defend Dice, Starting Body Points (hp), and Starting Mind Points (magical hp), and movement.

* Every one has 2 defend dice and 2 movement dice.
* The dwarf and elf have 2 attack dice while the barbarian has 3 and the wizard has 1.
* Everyone has a total of 10 starting defense points. The dwarf has 7 body and 3 mind, the barbarian has 8 body and 2 mind, the elf has 6 body and 4 mind, and the wizard has 4 body and 6 mind.

The math seems balanced to me.
 

HeroQuest - Wikipedia, the free encyclopedia

There are four base characters: Barbarian, Wizard, Dwarf, and Elf.

In a nutshell the characters have 5 attributes:
Attack Dice, Defend Dice, Starting Body Points (hp), and Starting Mind Points (magical hp), and movement.

* Every one has 2 defend dice and 2 movement dice.
* The dwarf and elf have 2 attack dice while the barbarian has 3 and the wizard has 1.
* Everyone has a total of 10 starting defense points. The dwarf has 7 body and 3 mind, the barbarian has 8 body and 2 mind, the elf has 6 body and 4 mind, and the wizard has 4 body and 6 mind.

The math seems balanced to me.

I'm sorry you didn't clarify and I thought, since we were discussing roleplaying games, you were in fact talking about the Heroquest roleplaying game. But I'm glad you clarified for me.

Edit: This is a competitive boardgame, like Descent right?
 

I'm sorry you didn't clarify and I thought, since we were discussing roleplaying games, you were in fact talking about the Heroquest roleplaying game. But I'm glad you clarified for me.

Edit: This is a competitive boardgame, like Descent right?

My bad, I didn't know that there was a Heroquest RPG. We played Heroquest like we played D&D, cooperatively.
 

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