The problem with D&D

[S'mon]

Um, duh. A 10th level fighter is a powerhouse, 15th level a legend, 20th level a supreme master...21st and beyond just the stuff for epic tales. A 10th level should be able to take down several, if not dozens, of 1st levels. It's up to the 1st levels to figure out how to take down the 10th level guy.

The problem with that though is demographics - per RAW 3e, 10th is only the high end of "mid level". Applying the DMG NPC demographics makes it impossible to run anything resembling a traditional fantasy or swords & sorcery setting, though Hong Kong Action Cinema (Zu Warriors of the Magic Mountain et al) or high-powered Anime are doable in 3e, apart from the square-counting getting in the way of the action.

 

[S'mon]

I apologise if I sound irritated but, as this is my first thread, perhaps you could leave the chiding for repeat offenders or make more comprehensive rules.

I find it's generally best not to criticise the moderators.

"You don't step on Superman's cape
You don't spit into the wind
You don't pull the mask off the ole Lone Ranger
And you don't criticise the ENW mods"

 

[Xini]

Thanks S'mon,

As a rule I don't criticise mods or admins but the welcome here is less than one which would make me receptive to "official" criticism.

Your point on the level disparity is correct, it's not the fact that these advanced levels of power exist but more so that between one part of a characters career and another there is a large jump in power. Yes you could slow it down but then this means no progression for even longer! It would seem that the simplest solution would be to have a progression including more levels and smaller steps though this in itself is a huge rewrite.

I think the end result from all of this so far is to try introducing people to GURPS and see how that goes, though I'm going to have a look into HARN too now (never heard of it before which is most unusual as I own a book or two out of quite a few systems).

I'm surprised that no one suggested True d20. I have considered it but I reckon it's too simplistic for me anyhow. Still I was expecting that one.

 

[Schmoe]

little miss leading

A new custom title is born.

I prefer little miss chievous. She's kind of kinky. In this case, however, I think little miss taken is more appropriate.

 

[IcyCool]

Thanks S'mon,

As a rule I don't criticise mods or admins but the welcome here is less than one which would make me receptive to "official" criticism.

A mod showed up and educated you on what is expected of you around here. You weren't "chided" (trust me, a temporary ban, or threat of such, usually accompanies such a post). Remember that you are a guest on Eric Noah's personal site, and that the only freedoms you enjoy here are those granted by the mods (i.e. There is no freedom of speech here). That's easy to forget on messageboards sometimes.

Your point on the level disparity is correct, it's not the fact that these advanced levels of power exist but more so that between one part of a characters career and another there is a large jump in power. Yes you could slow it down but then this means no progression for even longer! It would seem that the simplest solution would be to have a progression including more levels and smaller steps though this in itself is a huge rewrite.

I don't know why I didn't think of this earlier, but you might want to take a look at the Alternity RPG. It is one of the last things TSR put out before the end. It's sort of a proto 3E. You have levels (although they don't mean much), you have careers (sort of like classes, they just reduce the price of a set of skills), and you have incremental increases in power (everything, including magic or psionics use is a skill, and you buy those up). You can probably find the Alternity PHB and GM guide in PDF format on DriveThruRPG for cheap (they are out of print). I find the system flexible, fast, and fairly realistic. It still uses a sort of D20 mechanic in that you roll a D20, add or subtract a "situation die", and try to get under your skill, and includes a quality of success (Critical Failure, marginal failure, ordinary success, good success, amazing success). The default setting for it is Sci-Fi, but with the FX rules and a low PL level, you'd be all set.

 

[Technomancer]

Um, duh. A 10th level fighter is a powerhouse, 15th level a legend, 20th level a supreme master...21st and beyond just the stuff for epic tales. A 10th level should be able to take down several, if not dozens, of 1st levels. It's up to the 1st levels to figure out how to take down the 10th level guy.

I think his point, one I agree with, is that no one individual being should be that much more powerful than anyone else. The disparity in power between even 10th level and 1st level is too great, at least in my opinion.

Think of the most elite special forces guy on the planet, or alternately the greatest competitive boxer or martial artist. Put them up against a dozen guys armed and equipped similarly. Would they be able to mow through the mooks without a second thought?

 

[Schmoe]

Xini, here's some honest advice.

What you want out of a game sounds interesting, but it is not even close to core D&D 3.5. At this point, you have three options:

1. Pursue another system. Some other posters have described some good systems here.

2. Use variant rules that have already been published. The Unearthed Arcana has a lot of great ideas on this, many of which actually do address your concerns. If you haven't yet, I'd highly recommend looking at this book.

3. House-rule the heck out of the system. This would be a lot of work, but you may be more comfortable with this as it provides the greatest degree of customization.

Personally, I'd look at option 2 first, and proceed to option 1 if I didn't like what I saw.

For what it's worth, an "error" implies that something was done incorrectly, which means that there must be something correct to compare it against. There isn't. Game preference is a matter of personal opinion, not empirical truth. Stating that the design of D20 is in error is flat out false. Without question, the design has created what some people view as problems, and this is a good place to discuss those.

As for why some people labeled you as a troll, comments like these don't help:

I do hope that any version 4 that the mages of muhlah come up with is an improvement but I fear that they believe so strongly in the d20 religion and the infallibility of the original D&D concepts that we are liable to be left with a simple rehash of what exists now, including all the flaws.

They're inflammatory and denigrating.

 

[rgard]

Okay so me and my friend have spent many hours going over this again and again with possible solutions and theories. So far we reckon that either we need to abandon D&D or completely rewrite it.

The flaws in brief (as far as I can remember them)

<SNIP>

Hi Xini, welcome to EN World. As others have suggested, take a look at GURPS. It's playable and it addresses much of what you want.

On more general note, I have this observation. I've played boatloads of RPGs since 1977, dropped most at some point, but have stuck with D&D through it's versions. Throughout this time (just shy of 30 years now) I have met many folks who think D&D is broken and needs fixed. I recall a conversation with a guy at Riders (FLGS) in Ann Arbor in 1980, who was convinced he had a better magic system (mana point based) than D&D. There have been similar conversations with various folks since then who 'fixed' the combat system, character generation, money system, classes, experience points...you name the D&D convention and somebody endeavored to fix it.

Would write a witty summary, but I've already become bored with this.

Thanks,
Rich

 

[Jdvn1]

... alternate solutions.

Did you know we have an excellent house rules forum?

 

[Jdvn1]

I think his point, one I agree with, is that no one individual being should be that much more powerful than anyone else. The disparity in power between even 10th level and 1st level is too great, at least in my opinion.

Have you ever seen a Jackie Chan movie?