D&D General The Problem with Evil or what if we don't use alignments?

[Maxperson]

@Maxperson Where are you at on removing alignment just from the MM entries for humanoids (but not from them in individual encounters or individual NPCs)?

See my last post. Alignment should be there, but more in the form of 3e where it wasn't 100% of the race. Even though the 3e orcs were CE, at most 40-50% of them were of that alignment.

 

[Faolyn]

You're supposed to save the good, but unfinished, ideas for the weeks I don't have a lot of other work I'm behind on!!!!

Hah! Make them into tables and include an axis of Immediate Motivation as well.

 

[Minigiant]

This looks like a "you're having badwrongfun" type argument.

Many people feel alignment helps them create complex and strong stories.
If you don't use the tool that way that's fine. But insulting other people's games as lesser because they get good use out of a tool you don't get good use out of seems extreme and insulting to your gamer peers.

Let people have their fun, the way they want to have their fun.

As long as it's an optional rule, let people use their options how they want.

Nah. I literally said you can use alignment to make complex stories.

My point is that some use alignment to make weak stories and say others are having badwrongfun when they mention the massive holes in their lore.

Alignment is a shortcut. It works as a shortcut. However peopleshouldn't actlke a shortcut is te same as the long form of world and character design. Aint a thing wrong with simple, just don't push it as complex.

 

[Helldritch]

Nah. I literally said you can use alignment to make complex stories.

My point is that some use alignment to make weak stories and say others are having badwrongfun when they mention the massive holes in their lore.

Alignment is a shortcut. It works as a shortcut. However peopleshouldn't actlke a shortcut is te same as the long form of world and character design. Aint a thing wrong with simple, just don't push it as complex.

There is nothing wrong to use short cut for secondary characters and plots. Some of the best movies and novels do it. What truly matters is what you do with the main plot/characters.

And this is why alignment is useful, it gives our generic bad or good guys a basic set up, a generic behavior that will fit the needed ir wanted narrative. Nothing less and nothing more.

No one cares about the deep motivations of the generic storm troopers in Star Wars. They are your generic LE clones. But if you want to make an exception? Finn is a good example of an expanded generic bad guy that becomes a central character. Even in 1ed alignment was best used for the generic. More leeway was and has always been necessary necessary for the more complex enemies or allies of the players.

Again, as was said again and again, it is not because you do not use a tool that the tool is useless and that it should be removed. Some do actually find the tool quite useful and inspiring. No one for es you to use the rule, why remove such a useful tool from the hands of others?

 

[Neonchameleon]

There is nothing wrong to use short cut for secondary characters and plots. Some of the best movies and novels do it. What truly matters is what you do with the main plot/characters.

And this is why alignment is useful, it gives our generic bad or good guys a basic set up, a generic behavior that will fit the needed ir wanted narrative. Nothing less and nothing more.

There's nothing wrong with using shortcuts. But "Because I'm Evil" is (with the arguable exception of the idiot ball) probably the single most mocked and least useful shortcut in the whole of storytelling.

 

[Oofta]

There's nothing wrong with using shortcuts. But "Because I'm Evil" is (with the arguable exception of the idiot ball) probably the single most mocked and least useful shortcut in the whole of storytelling.

So? It's a game. DMs are not writing War and Peace.

Sometimes I just want simple thoughtless fun.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So? It's a game. DMs are not writing War and Peace.

Sometimes I just want simple thoughtless fun.

So you can have thoughtless fun with better tools just as easily. And you can do more with better tools.

 

[Helldritch]

There's nothing wrong with using shortcuts. But "Because I'm Evil" is (with the arguable exception of the idiot ball) probably the single most mocked and least useful shortcut in the whole of storytelling.

And yet, also the most acclaimed when done right. It is the right to use this dichotomy that I claim. Not every characters in a story needs to be well developed with 10 pages of descriptions... A generic character is a generic character. Not all foes are described. Just those that matters.

 

[Oofta]

So you can have thoughtless fun with better tools just as easily. And you can do more with better tools.

The tools I have work just fine thanks. Better than the alternatives I've seen.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And yet, also the most acclaimed when done right.

Who has been acclaimed when their motivation is "Because I'm evil"? Which are these stories you are talking about? There are a few comedy people like Dr. Evil and Team Rocket - but beyond that evil as a motivation is mostly saturday morning cartoons stuff.

It is the right to use this dichotomy that I claim. Not every characters in a story needs to be well developed with 10 pages of descriptions...

That's the fallacy of the excluded middle.

A generic character is a generic character. Not all foes are described. Just those that matters.

And Stormtroopers are generic characters. But part of the reason the OT works and the prequels are meh is that the Empire has an ideology and the First Order are cosplayers.

 

[Helldritch]

So you can have thoughtless fun with better tools just as easily. And you can do more with better tools.

Ok, shoot. Show me a tool that will require about 18 sentences that will be neatly resumed by two letters and applicable through out the games. So far, you have shown no better alternative that would be as concise yet vague enough so that it can be useful at any table or ignored if wanted. What would you do to make such a tool not be alignment?

If you want to sell me on an alternative rule, it has to take as little space as a two letter resume and about 20 lines to explain fully. If you want to remove something, you must have something to replace it. But I seriously doubt you will have something as good.

 

[Helldritch]

1)Who has been acclaimed when their motivation is "Because I'm evil"? Which are these stories you are talking about? There are a few comedy people like Dr. Evil and Team Rocket - but beyond that evil as a motivation is mostly saturday morning cartoons stuff.

2) That's the fallacy of the excluded middle.

3) And Stormtroopers are generic characters. But part of the reason the OT works and the prequels are meh is that the Empire has an ideology and the First Order are cosplayers.

1) Don't you dare mock down Team Rocket! And not all evil that claim :"Because I am Evil!" are cartoonish. Some are actually quite scary and disgusting.

2) I am not ignoring the middle either. I claim the right to use everything at my disposal to make good stories as fast and as efficiently as possible.

3) The first order is in the sequel, not the prequel. But that aside, yep COS players must be the bane of cinema... they are the reasons that movies and video games are so bad nowadays...
But jokes aside, you must see the point that not all villains needs to be fully described. Or your prep time must be in the stratosphere. I know that the sky's the limit but boy must it be long to prep. I am a maniac of preparation, and the amount of work need for each no name to have a background is just too much. It is a game. Not paid work.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Ok, shoot. Show me a tool that will require about 18 sentences that will be neatly resumed by two letters and applicable through out the games. So far, you have shown no better alternative that would be as concise yet vague enough so that it can be useful at any table or ignored if wanted. What would you do to make such a tool not be alignment?

I've already given the start to one a few pages back. It wasn't down to two letters or even two words (which is what the Monster Manual uses) but four on a first draft. And could be ignored. This is the current state - and it already in four words tells me about a thousand times more than "Chaotic Good" does.

• Who do you count as insiders? (Self, Team, Family, Clan, Country)
• How do you treat insiders? (Loyalty, Dominate, Trust, Backstab)
• How do you want to treat outsiders? (Welcome, Convert, Ignore, Distrust, Use, Dominate, Eliminate)
• What is best in life? (Power, Wealth, Comfort, Glory, Sex, Art, Excellence, Knowledge, Order)

If you want to sell me on an alternative rule, it has to take as little space as a two letter resume and about 20 lines to explain fully. If you want to remove something, you must have something to replace it. But I seriously doubt you will have something as good.

I disagree. Any rule has a cost. And much of the alignment system has a worth that's outright negative from what I've seen. If it were to be removed from every monster in the monster manual the cost of using the monster manual would be lower and not a single thing of value would be lost.

 

[Maxperson]

So you can have thoughtless fun with better tools just as easily. And you can do more with better tools.

I have yet to see a better tool offered. At least for me. Alignment isn't this super shallow crappy storytelling tool that people keep trying to make it out to be. It might be that way for them, but it's not that way for me. Apparently I get far better use from alignment than you and @Minigiant do. And that's fine. You guys don't have to use it and can just gloss over the two words in the stat block.

 

[Neonchameleon]

But jokes aside, you must see the point that not all villains needs to be fully described.

Not all villains need to be fully described. But that doesn't mean that a simple "Lawful Evil" tells me much - it doesn't even tell me anything that the name "Stormtrooper" and the uniform doesn't.

To clarify, there are only a tiny fraction of examples where the nine point alignment system provides meaningful information. They are almost all exceptions - and almost all detailed enough that describing them using nine point alignment is redundant.

 

[Maxperson]

I've already given the start to one a few pages back. It wasn't down to two letters or even two words (which is what the Monster Manual uses) but four on a first draft. And could be ignored. This is the current state - and it already in four words tells me about a thousand times more than "Chaotic Good" does.

• Who do you count as insiders? (Self, Team, Family, Clan, Country)
• How do you treat insiders? (Loyalty, Dominate, Trust, Backstab)
• How do you want to treat outsiders? (Welcome, Convert, Ignore, Distrust, Use, Dominate, Eliminate)
• What is best in life? (Power, Wealth, Comfort, Glory, Sex, Art, Excellence, Knowledge, Order)

I get far more out of chaotic good than I would from that. I mean, that's nice as well, but it's not as good for me as alignment is.

And much of the alignment system has a worth that's outright negative from what I've seen. If it were to be removed from every monster in the monster manual the cost of using the monster manual would be lower and not a single thing of value would be lost.

You guys have yet to show 5e alignment to be negative. So far I'll I've really heard are the horror stories from 13+ years ago when mechanics still applied to alignment.

 

[Maxperson]

Not all villains need to be fully described. But that doesn't mean that a simple "Lawful Evil" tells me much - it doesn't even tell me anything that the name "Stormtrooper" and the uniform doesn't.

Let's see. White armor like the clouds, storm and trooper. I got it. He's a warrior who fights in inclement weather!!

Lawful Evil provides me about 1000x more than the name does.

 

[Helldritch]

I've already given the start to one a few pages back. It wasn't down to two letters or even two words (which is what the Monster Manual uses) but four on a first draft. And could be ignored. This is the current state - and it already in four words tells me about a thousand times more than "Chaotic Good" does.

I disagree. Any rule has a cost. And much of the alignment system has a worth that's outright negative from what I've seen. If it were to be removed from every monster in the monster manual the cost of using the monster manual would be lower and not a single thing of value would be lost.

Ok. Do not look at your list.
The troopers of the Sun Empire are generally
SDWW.
The orc of the Turosh Empire are generally
SLUS
The knightly order of the Trifond are generally
CLDG...

With just three example of your list, you can see that it does not add up. And what if I made a mistake and the Orcs of the Turosh Empire are actually CDWW and not SDWW? This amount of referring back and forth to your system would be a pain in the (you know the reference I am sure). Alignments are resumed by two letters and it gives me all the info I need to run any of the organization above.

 

[Neonchameleon]

Let's see. White armor like the clouds, storm and trooper. I got it. He's a warrior who fights in inclement weather!!

Lawful Evil provides me about 1000x more than the name does.

From this I can either conclude that you are ignorant of 20th Century European history or are trolling me.

Either way I see no point in continuing this. Goodbye

 

[Neonchameleon]

Ok. Do not look at your list.
The troopers of the Sun Empire are generally
SDWW.
The orc of the Turosh Empire are generally
SLUS
The knightly order of the Trifond are generally
CLDG...

With just three example of your list, you can see that it does not add up.

All I can see is that you're pretending that acronyms are confusing when you don't have familiarity - which is why the 5e statblocks in the Monster Manual use the alignment written out in words. So do the 3.5, 3.0, 2e, and 1e.

So you are trying to set rules for alignment that no edition of D&D has ever followed. This is pure special pleading.

And what if I made a mistake and the Orcs of the Turosh Empire are actually CDWW and not SDWW?

I don't know. What happens if you make a mistake and declare all orcs to be Lawful Evil when they are in fact Chaotic Evil. The way 2e did. You're not proposing anything that makes this worse than 9 point alignment

This amount of referring back and forth to your system would be a pain in the (you know the reference I am sure). Alignments are resumed by two letters and it gives me all the info I need to run any of the organization above.

But alignments aren't given two letters in any of the main monster manuals. They are given two words - which eliminates all the referring back and forth.

Your entire issue here is that "If you do something with this system that has not been done in any central monster manual it makes it harder to learn". Which is why D&D does not do things the way you are proposing in any central monster manual when using nine point alignment.