D&D General The Problem with Evil or what if we don't use alignments?

[Maxperson]

@Maxperson Where are you at on removing alignment just from the MM entries for humanoids (but not from them in individual encounters or individual NPCs)?

See my last post. Alignment should be there, but more in the form of 3e where it wasn't 100% of the race. Even though the 3e orcs were CE, at most 40-50% of them were of that alignment.

 

[Faolyn]

You're supposed to save the good, but unfinished, ideas for the weeks I don't have a lot of other work I'm behind on!!!!

Hah! Make them into tables and include an axis of Immediate Motivation as well.

 

[Minigiant]

This looks like a "you're having badwrongfun" type argument.

Many people feel alignment helps them create complex and strong stories.
If you don't use the tool that way that's fine. But insulting other people's games as lesser because they get good use out of a tool you don't get good use out of seems extreme and insulting to your gamer peers.

Let people have their fun, the way they want to have their fun.

As long as it's an optional rule, let people use their options how they want.

Nah. I literally said you can use alignment to make complex stories.

My point is that some use alignment to make weak stories and say others are having badwrongfun when they mention the massive holes in their lore.

Alignment is a shortcut. It works as a shortcut. However peopleshouldn't actlke a shortcut is te same as the long form of world and character design. Aint a thing wrong with simple, just don't push it as complex.

 

[Helldritch]

Nah. I literally said you can use alignment to make complex stories.

My point is that some use alignment to make weak stories and say others are having badwrongfun when they mention the massive holes in their lore.

Alignment is a shortcut. It works as a shortcut. However peopleshouldn't actlke a shortcut is te same as the long form of world and character design. Aint a thing wrong with simple, just don't push it as complex.

There is nothing wrong to use short cut for secondary characters and plots. Some of the best movies and novels do it. What truly matters is what you do with the main plot/characters.

And this is why alignment is useful, it gives our generic bad or good guys a basic set up, a generic behavior that will fit the needed ir wanted narrative. Nothing less and nothing more.

No one cares about the deep motivations of the generic storm troopers in Star Wars. They are your generic LE clones. But if you want to make an exception? Finn is a good example of an expanded generic bad guy that becomes a central character. Even in 1ed alignment was best used for the generic. More leeway was and has always been necessary necessary for the more complex enemies or allies of the players.

Again, as was said again and again, it is not because you do not use a tool that the tool is useless and that it should be removed. Some do actually find the tool quite useful and inspiring. No one for es you to use the rule, why remove such a useful tool from the hands of others?

 

[Neonchameleon]

There is nothing wrong to use short cut for secondary characters and plots. Some of the best movies and novels do it. What truly matters is what you do with the main plot/characters.

And this is why alignment is useful, it gives our generic bad or good guys a basic set up, a generic behavior that will fit the needed ir wanted narrative. Nothing less and nothing more.

There's nothing wrong with using shortcuts. But "Because I'm Evil" is (with the arguable exception of the idiot ball) probably the single most mocked and least useful shortcut in the whole of storytelling.

 

[Oofta]

There's nothing wrong with using shortcuts. But "Because I'm Evil" is (with the arguable exception of the idiot ball) probably the single most mocked and least useful shortcut in the whole of storytelling.

So? It's a game. DMs are not writing War and Peace.

Sometimes I just want simple thoughtless fun.

 

[Neonchameleon]

So? It's a game. DMs are not writing War and Peace.

Sometimes I just want simple thoughtless fun.

So you can have thoughtless fun with better tools just as easily. And you can do more with better tools.

 

[Helldritch]

There's nothing wrong with using shortcuts. But "Because I'm Evil" is (with the arguable exception of the idiot ball) probably the single most mocked and least useful shortcut in the whole of storytelling.

And yet, also the most acclaimed when done right. It is the right to use this dichotomy that I claim. Not every characters in a story needs to be well developed with 10 pages of descriptions... A generic character is a generic character. Not all foes are described. Just those that matters.

 

[Oofta]

So you can have thoughtless fun with better tools just as easily. And you can do more with better tools.

The tools I have work just fine thanks. Better than the alternatives I've seen.

 

[Neonchameleon]

And yet, also the most acclaimed when done right.

Who has been acclaimed when their motivation is "Because I'm evil"? Which are these stories you are talking about? There are a few comedy people like Dr. Evil and Team Rocket - but beyond that evil as a motivation is mostly saturday morning cartoons stuff.

It is the right to use this dichotomy that I claim. Not every characters in a story needs to be well developed with 10 pages of descriptions...

That's the fallacy of the excluded middle.

A generic character is a generic character. Not all foes are described. Just those that matters.

And Stormtroopers are generic characters. But part of the reason the OT works and the prequels are meh is that the Empire has an ideology and the First Order are cosplayers.