D&D (2024) The Problem with Healing Powercreep

[Crimson Longinus]

It was for FrogReaver:

"could just succeed by spending a resource."

Bolded the issue part.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Neither is mana. Unless you write the story to include that as a thing. So why can't you write that into the narrative?

You can. But then it becomes something supernatural and prenatural. And that's fine, but then you no longer can use it to represent mundane characters.

But spell slots are not a thing! No person on this earth has ever had a spell slot. So now what?

But in D&D land they do.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

So, here is a rule for starvation in 5e D&D:

A character can go without food for a number of days equal to 3 + his or her Constitution modifier (minimum 1). At the end of each day beyond that limit, a character automatically suffers one level of exhaustion. A normal day of eating resets the count of days without food to zero.​

So a character knows exactly how long they can go without eating, and exactly what the consequence will be, and can pace their rations around that knowledge.

How is that "diegetic" in a way the example that I gave is not?

I mean it is more prefect knowledge than there would be in real life, but represents hardier characters being able to withstand the effects of starvation longer, which seems something the characters could assume. It also is a rule I would expect overwhelming majority of campaigns has ever used, as it is not thing that comes up, so hardly the same that core mechanic of the fame which I assume the plot point to be.

You do this a lot. You drag some peculiar edge case that could be seen as mildly similar if you squint really hard, and compare it to a big blatant thing that is front and centre in another game and you think it is some sort of a gotcha. It isn't.

 

[pemerton]

"could just succeed by spending a resource."

Bolded the issue part.

Spending a spell slot is spending a resource.

Sucking up an exhaustion level is spending a resource.

Losing hp is spending a resource - which is how I know that I can survive, for sure, the shot from that Orc archer with bow at the ready, if (i) I know they're an ordinary Orc and (ii) I know I have 20 hp remaining of my hp tally.

I'm not seeing how the "plot point" raises a distinctive issue.

 

[pemerton]

I mean it is more prefect knowledge than there would be in real life, but represents hardier characters being able to withstand the effects of starvation longer, which seems something the characters could assume.

And so why is the "plot point" not the same.

You drag some peculiar edge case that could be seen as mildly similar if you squint really hard, and compare it to a big blatant thing that is front and centre in another game and you think it is some sort of a gotcha. It isn't.

Hit points, and spell slots, aren't edge cases in D&D.

Nor are exhaustion levels, for those who use them for gritty healing and the like (and I see a fair bit of that on these boards).

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Spending a spell slot is spending a resource.

Yes it is. And the character knows that.

Sucking up an exhaustion level is spending a resource.

Losing hp is spending a resource - which is how I know that I can survive, for sure, the shot from that Orc archer with bow at the ready, if (i) I know they're an ordinary Orc and (ii) I know I have 20 hp remaining of my hp tally.

Its not really "spending." You're suffering them, often in a manner that is quite out of your control.

I'm not seeing how the "plot point" raises a distinctive issue.

OK. I am not actually familiar with the game you're speaking of. What sort of things you can spend plot points for? How do you do things if you don't have any or don't want to spend them? Are they actually mapped to exhaustion in the game, or is this just something you came up? If they are, is this actually even somewhat consistently handled with assumption of such fiction? And do people playing this game actually treat them as diegetic, or do they actually just treat them as separate meta resource the name implies, and you're trying to come up with a tortured diegetic interpretation?

 

[CreamCloud0]

So, here is a rule for starvation in 5e D&D:

A character can go without food for a number of days equal to 3 + his or her Constitution modifier (minimum 1). At the end of each day beyond that limit, a character automatically suffers one level of exhaustion. A normal day of eating resets the count of days without food to zero.​

So a character knows exactly how long they can go without eating, and exactly what the consequence will be, and can pace their rations around that knowledge.

How is that "diegetic" in a way the example that I gave is not?

Do characters normally know what their ability scores are digetically in universe? The players might be blasé and do it but people aren’t exactly going around saying things like ‘I’ve got a 14 Con, what have you got?’

 

[James Gasik]

Do characters normally know what their ability scores are digetically in universe? The players might be blasé and do it but people aren’t exactly going around saying things like ‘I’ve got a 14 Con, what have you got?’

I don't see why they couldn't, to an extent. Figuring out your max press is just a matter of math and having a method to weigh things. Some sort of test to determine intelligence could be made (even if such things tend to be inaccurate).

You can gauge reaction time, jump distances, vision range, and many other physical attributes to get some metric for how you compare to other people.

And then there's 7th level Battle Masters-

Know Your Enemy​

Starting at 7th level, if you spend at least 1 minute observing or interacting with another creature outside combat, you can learn certain information about its capabilities compared to your own. The DM tells you if the creature is your equal, superior, or inferior in regard to two of the following characteristics of your choice:

• Strength score
• Dexterity score
• Constitution score
• Armor Class
• Current hit points
• Total class levels, if any
• Fighter class levels, if any

 

[tetrasodium]

Do characters normally know what their ability scores are digetically in universe? The players might be blasé and do it but people aren’t exactly going around saying things like ‘I’ve got a 14 Con, what have you got?’

Why not? I could attach an automated blood pressure cuff & o2 monitor to report my current blood pressure & blood oxygen levels right now. There are almost certainly folks on this forum who could do similar & add blood glucose levels. Bathroom scales are so common that adding things like weight is easy while many of those scales will also report things like body fat/muscle mass & more. Add in various fitness bands for real time heart rate monitoring & such for quite the list of numerical statistics of our bodies without even involving a doctor, specialized scan, labtest, or blood draw/donation.

Alice & bob might not know how to check their con score like Cindy's barbarian, but the same kind of vaguely known "um... like 14" report of the last time it was tested seems pretty reasonable

 

[pemerton]

Do characters normally know what their ability scores are digetically in universe? The players might be blasé and do it but people aren’t exactly going around saying things like ‘I’ve got a 14 Con, what have you got?’

I'm responding to posters who think that spending spell slots is "diegetic", that accumulating exhaustion levels is "diegetic", that losing levels to energy drain is "diegetic", but that a system in which a player can spend a point to secure success over an obstacle rated no more highly than their relevant ability is "metagame".

I am saying that I can't see how that last one is different, other than the fact that it's not a D&D mechanic.

As far as knowing ability scores: a character can work out their CON bonus by seeing how long they can go without food; can know their STR score by seeing how many feet they can jump whenever they want to; and I'm sure similar tests are available to rate other ability scores. Presumably this is all supposed to be "diegetic".

EDIT: In case it's not clear, I find that this distinction between "diegetic" and "metagame" mechanics - as it is being drawn in this thread - not very helpful.

EDIT2: I just read @James Gasik's post, which ninjas mine.