D&D General The purpose of deity stats in D&D.

[cbwjm]

My view on deities in D&D has been an amalgam of 1e and 2e for over 30 years. Never seen any reason to change it, other than allowing the means for PCs to join their ranks.

Mine has largely as well, though I never really bothered with the worshippers requirement. Recently though, I've thought about making every god a demigod and what elevates them to the higher levels is the power of worshippers. Didn't really do anything with that though.

 

[Upper_Krust]

The version I'm thinking of involves a very complex, expensive, and time-consuming ritual spell that invests a target with divine power (the acquisition and use of which there are also rules for). Since the results provide mechanical models for what divine ascension means, the resulting PC is perfectly playable, if beyond the scope of most campaigns.

No reason why Epic Spells could not impart Divinity; both on a temporary or permanent basis ( a la Karsus Avatar) depending upon the power of the spell.

That said, I wouldn't consider Ascension via Epic Spell/Ritual to be the standard method.

As regards playability, I think keeping everything as simple as possible should be one of the main aims, given that Epic play is already more complicated by default.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Only deities can kill deities, and PCs aren't deities.

There are always exceptions, but the idea that you can kill Orcus or Vecna with conventional weapons is absurd to me.

While I agree slaying a deity should not be easy and not be as simple as say reducing Orcus' CR 26 stat-block to 0 hp, the idea that only a deity can slay a deity seems like a solution for people disinterested in the idea of god-slaying to begin with, rather than a practical approach where all power is relative and there are strata of power among the gods and the lines are blurred between the weakest gods and most powerful mortals.

D&D is more fun and interesting when it has stats for Orcus, Demogorgon, Tiamat and Asmodeus (etc.) - they are the D&D version of Iconic 'Bosses'. So the inclusion of those stats only make sense at a power-level where they can (just about) be fought by the greatest of mortal parties and the mortals in this case should have a chance of victory - perhaps a slim chance but a chance nonetheless.

 

[Upper_Krust]

Huh? The 4e PHB has Demi-god as an epic destiny option. Epic tier PCs are gods, or chief servitors/exarchs of the gods, or rivals of the gods.

Makes sense that there is an overlap in the Epic Tier and lower ranks of Divinity.

But Demi-god as an Epic Destiny does not let a PC become, say, Zeus (for example).

And the combat rules permit the resolution of combat between the PCs and gods, while the skill challenge rules permit the resolution of other sorts of struggles the PCs might have with divinities or similar sorts of beings.

I enjoyed 4E (my Level 30 Ranger was part of a Party that slew Orcus). But I don't recall any mechanics that made the character 'feel' like a deity. Powerful and super-heroic and indeed "Epic" yes, but there were no real trappings of Divinity: Worship, Divine Realm, Acts of Creation, etc. As such its like role-playing a king without a kingdom.

 

[Upper_Krust]

I respectfully disagree. IMO, deities should be more than a bag of hp that high level PCs have a good chance of defeating.

Not just tier 4 vs. tier 5.

More like tier 4 vs. tier 347.

To be interact-able it has to be like Tier 4 vs. Tier 5.

Personally I think fighting an Avatar should be a stepping stone rather than a capstone because if it is a capstone its a horribly underwhelming one.

Would Avengers: Endgame be the same if they just defeated an Avatar of Thanos?

 

[Voadam]

D&D is more fun and interesting when it has stats for Orcus, Demogorgon, Tiamat and Asmodeus (etc.) - they are the D&D version of Iconic 'Bosses'. So the inclusion of those stats only make sense at a power-level where they can (just about) be fought by the greatest of mortal parties and the mortals in this case should have a chance of victory - perhaps a slim chance but a chance nonetheless

That does seem a big inherent setup of things like 1e Greyhawk’s demigod Wastri the Hopping Prophet, a lesser god in 5e terms. He is an evil minor backwoods god of White supremacists who lives in a swamp in the setting and has stats so you can punch him in the face as a possible campaign boss fight.

 

[Voadam]

The simple answer there is to just promote Orcus and some others to full-deity status.

The way I see it, for the Good-Evil* balance to remain in place there needs to be about the same number (and same power) of deities on each side.

* - and-or Law-Chaos, and-or Male-Female, etc.

This is one option to keep Orcus relevant in god plots but you then now have the hard line between say Balors and any now deity demon lord.

Also most every pantheon already has evil gods. 4e Dawn War with Raven Queen has Torog and Vecna and Tiamat and Bane and so on who already balance out Bahamut and Moradin for instance.

 

[Lanefan]

To be interact-able it has to be like Tier 4 vs. Tier 5.

Personally I think fighting an Avatar should be a stepping stone rather than a capstone because if it is a capstone its a horribly underwhelming one.

Would Avengers: Endgame be the same if they just defeated an Avatar of Thanos?

Were the MCU to use my idea of deities Thanos wouldn't hold a candle to any of 'em. He's just a very high-level mortal, and bleeds when you cut him.

If the Infinity Stones had their own sentience and weren't so controllable by others they'd be more like actual deities in terms of their power levels.

 

[Lanefan]

This is one option to keep Orcus relevant in god plots but you then now have the hard line between say Balors and any now deity demon lord.

I didn't say promote them all, just a half-dozen or dozen key ones. Orcus, Dispater, Asmodeus, maybe Graz'zt, etc.

Also most every pantheon already has evil gods. 4e Dawn War with Raven Queen has Torog and Vecna and Tiamat and Bane and so on who already balance out Bahamut and Moradin for instance.

Were I using that pantheon I'd probably outright replace Torog with Orcus.

 

[Upper_Krust]

That does seem a big inherent setup of things like 1e Greyhawk’s demigod Wastri the Hopping Prophet, a lesser god in 5e terms. He is an evil minor backwoods god of White supremacists who lives in a swamp in the setting and has stats so you can punch him in the face as a possible campaign boss fight.

Didn't Jim Ward mention Gary (Gygax) was purportedly a bit annoyed Deities & Demigods (which wasn't written under his auspices) did not have something akin to the Quasi-deity and Hero-deity transitional powers (later shown in the World of Greyhawk gold boxed set) - although it did have the "Heroes" entries I suppose.

Aside from a few anomalies (Lolth with 66 HP) AD&D's Deities & Demigods had fairly decent scaling of its immortal beings, but those did not always mesh with what we saw in the Monster Manuals.

Gary mentioned to me (via email around 22-23 years ago) that at the time of his ousting from TSR he was planning a book that would redo the stats of the immortals within all the Monster Manual and Fiend Folio books (the likes of Orcus and Asmodeus) to better bring them 'up to date' with d12's for Hit Dice and so forth. Not sure if he meant update them to be more in line with Deities & Demigods or something new altogether. But certainly while the Demon Princes were considered Lesser Gods they were 'weak' compared to those other Lesser Gods in D&Dg, at least in terms of hit points where it was more like: Quasi-deity 100 HP+, Hero-deity 150 HP+, Demigod 200 HP+, Lesser God 250 HP+, Greater God 350 HP+, Pantheon Head 400 HP...as rough approximations.

But I agree with you such beings are clearly setup to be challenged by groups of mortal PCs of the highest levels.