The Quantum Ogre Dilemma

[Micah Sweet]

I don't think sandbox needs to be static. Interesting events can still happen, and it is perfectly fine for the GM just to decide that some of them happen when the PCs are around. Like would the sort of situation like I described, a wild monster breaking loose from animal handler in a city just never happen in your game?

Not very likely, no. But it could, and the more time the PCs spend in town, the more likely they're around when it happens. Interesting things happen in the setting all the time, they're just not dependent on the PCs presence unless there's a setting-relevant reason why they would be. Maybe someone set the owlbear free on purpose, knowing adventurers would wrangle it, for their own purposes? Completely random events are completely random.

 

[Micah Sweet]

Fair enough, I guess. I would not happily run it. I'd either quite, and tell them they're on their own, or I'd throw all kinds of interesting things at them anyway.

I don't advocate for my preference, except at my own table. I'm happy to discuss my preferences and talk about them with anyone interested. But advocacy is where I draw the line. If you don't already like playing that way, you're not going to, and advocating for it is only going to pit people against each other.

You're welcome to feel that way. I'm aware my preference is not mainstream, but that doesn't stop me from advocating for it.

 

[MGibster]

Because the players made no meaningful choice. They may as well have rolled a die, odd go left, even go right. for all they know there is an ogre on both paths - why not?

This is exactly my argument as well. The meaningful choice isn't whether the PCs come across the ogre, rather it's how they choose to interact with him. Do they hide from the ogre? Do they attack? Do they try to communicate? And for me at least, railroading is when the DM doesn't allow players to make meaningful choices that have an impact on the game.

At which point, for this kind of scenario, my advice to the DM - don't present a choice. Linear is ok, no need to obfuscate.

The beautiful part is very often the players just think it's an ogre and don't know it's really a quantum ogre. Sometimes the players just do what they do and it just so happens to make it easier for me to present them with the quantum ogre.

Questions I have: Has anyone actually ever seen the quantum ogre put into use in a game?

There was a scenario for the 1st edition of Legend of the Five Rings where the PCs are traveling on foot (or horse) and encounter a merchant. It doesn't matter whether the PCs are on a main thoroughfare or traveling the backroads to avoid authorities, the PCs were absolutely going to encounter the merchant. How or even if the PCs interact with the merchant is entirely up to them. They can ignore him, talk to him, maybe even help him with his stuck cart, but it's their choice.

I also think that almost every GM uses some amount of such quantum things. The interesting thing happens when the PCs are around, regardless of when that actually is, and stuff like that. It is low level everyday illusionism, which makes the world to feel more full of engaging stuff than would otherwise be practically possible.

I suspect the QO is fairly common in premade scenarios.

In spite of what sandbox cultists say, the Platonic ideal of a sandbox isn't a very good model for an RPG, and very few players really want to play that kind of game.

Something I've always disliked about the sandbox analogy is it very often doesn't acknowledge that even the biggest sandbox is finite. You can play in the sandbox however you'd like, but take too many steps and you're suddenly outside the box.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

Not very likely, no. But it could, and the more time the PCs spend in town, the more likely they're around when it happens. Interesting things happen in the setting all the time, they're just not dependent on the PCs presence unless there's a setting-relevant reason why they would be. Maybe someone set the owlbear free on purpose, knowing adventurers would wrangle it, for their own purposes? Completely random events are completely random.

But how does this in practice work? Like you must think the possibility of this sort of thing happening even to randomise it. And there are nigh infinite number of unlikely things that could happen, but are very unlikely to. You cannot in practice be randomising all of them constantly.

To me the GM being in charge of the world also entails that they can just decide that "this thing happens now" if they see it fit.

 

[Stormonu]

I think there is a middle ground in this matter. Players want their decisions to matter, and the DM surely wants to present something that's entertaining.

I've been guilty of a form of the Quantum Ogre myself, but I tend to build encounters that respond to decisions the characters make. If the characters are at a fork in the road and decide to take the right-hand path, I may well cook up (or have prepared) a handful of encounters that will occur along that path - But I try to make sure the party has the choice to avoid, engage, ignore or investigate the encounters as they choose. In this case, I'm including in encounters things that could be a bit of color, a clue, side quest opportunity, hazard, RP encounter or combat. It's basically anything that as a DM I take a moment or more to indicate something of significance happened (as opposed to "you walk three days and reach X").

If the characters take the left-hand path, I'll still make encounters, but they will fit taking that path. In some cases though, I might use some of the same ones from the other path should they fit (say, a thunderstorm rolling into the area). As before the group has the choice what to do when it comes up. The players might not want to engage in some of the encounters I've made, and that's fine - for me they are there to see what the party wants to do, and "NOPE!" is a perfectly acceptable option to try. In other cases, the party's resolution to a given encounter might inspire future events (example: A dragon flies high above the party's head and the group dips into the woods momentarily to avoid being seen. A follow-up might be a few hours later they see the dragon again, returning the way it originally came lugging a load of treasure in its claws and with a few charred arrows sticking out of its hide - and this time, it tries to evade the party...).

Now, if the party decides they want to ditch the road and duck into the woods, again I'll still put together some encounters, but they'll be based on their choice, and will likely be unlike anything they would have run into on one of the two paths. It might also take longer or shorter to arrive at their destination.

What I try to avoid is a case of no matter where they go, they're going to have the same exact encounter(s), rendering their choice of path irrelevant or spring "gotcha" encounters on the party.

 

[Hex08]

So, are you suggesting that if the players decided that they wanted to avoid all of the weirdness and go open a bakery in the quietest, least weird town in the Realm, that that'd be OK with you? You'd run that for them?

I would. However, the campaign would end up being really short.

"Having decided the life of an adventurer is not for you, you all retire to a remote village and open a bakery. The end"

"Now that the campaign is over I am going to need time to come up with a new one (I am essentially the primary DM for my group) and honestly, I put a lot of time into the one that just ended so I am not ready to start work on a new one yet so it will probably be a while."

I have ended campaigns and booted players because they were uncooperative. While it's my job to make sure the players have fun, it's just as important that I do as well.

 

[Morrus]

I’ve moved this to Publishers/Press as it’s essentially an ad for a blog and mailing list. If you’d like to remove the link, I’d be happy to move it back. That said, the OP registered, posted this within a minute, and hasn't returned since.

 

[NotAYakk]

The Quantum Ogre happens when the choice presented to the players (left or right?) has no actual useful information, and it hides behind it an encounter of significance that happens regardless of choice.

The Ogre will be wherever the players go; if the ogre is important, then the choice was a false one; no important information was given that gives players a real meaningful choice. If the Ogre isn't of importance, then why would the DM make it quantum?

Well, one reason to make it quantum is that it is a reusable combat encounter that is all set up for the DM to run, and doing so is work. Which is valid; having a book of pre-made encounters lying around is often a good plan.

To me, however, the Quantum Ogre really matters when the Ogre is a substantial and narrative heavy encounter, an important one, and not just a "random encounter" (like, some encounters while travelling, you run into wolves). It happens no matter what, by teleporting, and not by any in-world reason.

...

In theory a DM can make a Quantum Ogre undetectable. I claim that few DMs can pull this off; one of the side effects of actually doing world building and having it exist without the PCs is that the world "breathes" when the PCs aren't around. The other path with the Ogre can generate rumors or stories; and such details are insanely less likely to occur if the DM has the ability to erase all world building done that the PCs don't look at directly.

The "excess work" of seeing an Ogre along one path and a Wyvern on the other leads to other excess work; why Ogre and why Wyvern, and what does that mean for the world? What hints are there that one path has an Ogre, the other a Wyvern?

You can't answer these questions if your encounters (of meaning) are Quantum, because you can't tell players what their choices mean, and their choices cannot have meaningful differences, as both choices are the same. And those questions change how the players experience the game.

A railroad - or roller coaster - ride can be a fun game. There are a pile of D&D-esque board games and video games that work exactly like that. But they aren't the same.

 

[Micah Sweet]

But how does this in practice work? Like you must think the possibility of this sort of thing happening even to randomise it. And there are nigh infinite number of unlikely things that could happen, but are very unlikely to. You cannot in practice be randomising all of them constantly.

To me the GM being in charge of the world also entails that they can just decide that "this thing happens now" if they see it fit.

I use tables. Obviously they're not all-inclusive, but I haven't found my available material for such lacking as of yet.

 

[Crimson Longinus]

I use tables. Obviously they're not all-inclusive, but I haven't found my available material for such lacking as of yet.

I am genuinely interested, could you show some examples of such tables and tell how you use them?