The Question of Balance
- Thread starter Crothian
- Start date
Primitive Screwhead
First Post
I agree that balanced D20 supplements, WOTC or otherwize, are alot more common now. In the early days of 3.x there were a number of out of whack books that came out from both sides of the fence but I think authors have it pinned down better now.
I don't avoid 3rd party material and the books I do own are relatively balanced. However there are not too many people here interesting in discussing the relative merits of the alt-Ranger in Wildscape...so I discuss the merits of more well known books.
As an aside to Glyfair, Occult Lore has a well written section on Dream Magic written by Keith Baker... fits very well into the Eberron setting
I bought the book just for that chapter..the other chapters are less useful and less balanced.
I don't avoid 3rd party material and the books I do own are relatively balanced. However there are not too many people here interesting in discussing the relative merits of the alt-Ranger in Wildscape...so I discuss the merits of more well known books.
As an aside to Glyfair, Occult Lore has a well written section on Dream Magic written by Keith Baker... fits very well into the Eberron setting
I bought the book just for that chapter..the other chapters are less useful and less balanced.
Crothian
First Post
Cadfan said:
Perhaps the topic of the thread is confusing. I apologize for the lack of clarity. I'm interested in examples of unbalanced third party products and the belief that they are unbalanced. I do belief that many people will recognize a PHB2 especially with the name of the book clearly printed on the cover. Allowing it in one's game is another thread all together.
Hussar
Legend
I think that's probably the big one. I know it is for me and the people I talk to. There was just so much crap out there for 3.0 that was just terribly out of whack. I love Scarred Lands, but, I know that whenever I pick up any of the books, I have to double and triple check each part before using it in my game.
If the newer d20 material is better, I wouldn't know. After having been bitten rather badly by a number of products, I simply don't buy non-WOTC books anymore particularly. While the quality may be very high among the remaining publishers, I simply don't want to find out.
Crothian said:
People's perceptions of quality are based upon past experience, not current products. What we are discussing today is not really telling. What were we discussing back at the birth of the 3rd-party publisher? If people found those first products to be poor, they won't go back so long as there are enough WotC products to fill their needs.
As some have mentioned, I think a lot of it is stigma from the first rush of 3rd party 3.0 stuff. Some was very good, some... was not.
I, personally, would be more willing to trust current 3rd party stuff than I was after the first rush - but as a player it really isn't my call.
I think a second part of the problem with the unbalanced perception, is that there are really two categories for most groups: WotC and non-WotC. If you let in some non-WotC the DM is likely to be afraid that they will be pushed for more non-WotC material - and there is a lot of garbage out there (there is a lot of good stuff too but the DM is worried about the good stuff). Some WotC stuff may qualify for that designation as well but at least they are talked about here and other places to a much greater extent so the DM is likely to have more awareness of the bad WotC stuff (and why it is called "bad") than some obsure 3rd party pdf pamphlet that they never heard of before.
Which brings us around to the stigma from that first rush again...
I, personally, would be more willing to trust current 3rd party stuff than I was after the first rush - but as a player it really isn't my call.
I think a second part of the problem with the unbalanced perception, is that there are really two categories for most groups: WotC and non-WotC. If you let in some non-WotC the DM is likely to be afraid that they will be pushed for more non-WotC material - and there is a lot of garbage out there (there is a lot of good stuff too but the DM is worried about the good stuff). Some WotC stuff may qualify for that designation as well but at least they are talked about here and other places to a much greater extent so the DM is likely to have more awareness of the bad WotC stuff (and why it is called "bad") than some obsure 3rd party pdf pamphlet that they never heard of before.
Which brings us around to the stigma from that first rush again...
And then I proceed to not really answer the question...
Do I think 3rd party stuff is as unbalanced as the stigma (that I mentioned above) states.
Not inherently, no. There is good stuff out there, and stuff that is better than some of the books WotC put out. Now, I think that the balance is fairly good from the (admitadly small amount of books) that I have seen - for the current crop of newer 3.5 books at least.
If you are to ask about average quality of balance and have the two categories of WotC and non-WotC, then I would have to say that non-WotC is not as balanced as WotC. But that is because the non-WotC group is much, much larger and really isn't a fair comparison (you would have to do a company by company comparison to be fair).
Do I think 3rd party stuff is as unbalanced as the stigma (that I mentioned above) states.
Not inherently, no. There is good stuff out there, and stuff that is better than some of the books WotC put out. Now, I think that the balance is fairly good from the (admitadly small amount of books) that I have seen - for the current crop of newer 3.5 books at least.
If you are to ask about average quality of balance and have the two categories of WotC and non-WotC, then I would have to say that non-WotC is not as balanced as WotC. But that is because the non-WotC group is much, much larger and really isn't a fair comparison (you would have to do a company by company comparison to be fair).
Ghendar
First Post
Crothian said:
My experience (and it is only my experiance I'm talking about here.) is that it has been an excuse based on very little testing. In other words, "I don't like third party books because I don't trust them to playtest properly." Note, this is not based on extensive testing but generalizing by people I've talked to. One guy wouldn't but third party books because they didn't look as pretty as WotC books, but that's another issue.
I'm constantly amazed by those who blindly put their trust in WotC playtesting but totally ignore third party stuff because they don't believe that third party playtesting is worth anything. Some just don't trust third party. <shrug>
I had a DM stop using the Tome of Horrors because he felt one monster in it (one monster!!!) was too weak for its CR. That was based on actual use in an adventure he ran.
Last edited:
Shroomy
Adventurer
I pretty much restrict myself to WoTC supplements (and Paizo products) when it comes to rules. I would consider buying some 3rd Party modules etc (like DCC or Necromancer), but Dungeon covers the majority of my needs. There are four main reasons for my purchasing patterns:
1. Distribution/Marketing - WoTC products are higher profile and are stocked at more locations. Given the various higher profile marketing channels available to WoTC, I'm much more informed of their products than I would even of the upper tier 3rd party publishers.
2. Supply - Related to #1, WoTC products are pretty much available in any major bookstore, not to mention my FLGS (which have fluctuating supplies of 3rd party products). I'm lazy, so it has to be pretty special for me to go out of my way to get the product.
3. Support - Let's face it, WoTC products are better supported in the area where it counts for me, adventures. You got Dungeon pumping out high quality short adventures every month that incorporate material from all of the various sourcebooks, WoTC is moving into adventures in a big way (hopefully, most will follow the Dungeon/Red Hand of Doom design philosophy), and even 3rd party publishers support the core products. We're even beginning to see cross-pollination between WoTC's non-core sourcebooks. Look at the examples provided in The Player's Guide to Eberron, Sharn: City of Towers, and Monster Manual IV. Oh yeah, and there's Dragon which continues to support the new rules with various articles 12 times a year.
4. Design Philosophy - This is a personal thing for me. I buy WoTC products because there are some core philosophies that carry over from product to product (core d20 rules, campaign portability, options for players, making the game easier for DMs by providing pre-gen resources, etc.). I find it easier to fit in rules designed under the same philosophy than a 3rd party product that significantly diverges from the philosophy that I'm used to and have come to expect.
1. Distribution/Marketing - WoTC products are higher profile and are stocked at more locations. Given the various higher profile marketing channels available to WoTC, I'm much more informed of their products than I would even of the upper tier 3rd party publishers.
2. Supply - Related to #1, WoTC products are pretty much available in any major bookstore, not to mention my FLGS (which have fluctuating supplies of 3rd party products). I'm lazy, so it has to be pretty special for me to go out of my way to get the product.
3. Support - Let's face it, WoTC products are better supported in the area where it counts for me, adventures. You got Dungeon pumping out high quality short adventures every month that incorporate material from all of the various sourcebooks, WoTC is moving into adventures in a big way (hopefully, most will follow the Dungeon/Red Hand of Doom design philosophy), and even 3rd party publishers support the core products. We're even beginning to see cross-pollination between WoTC's non-core sourcebooks. Look at the examples provided in The Player's Guide to Eberron, Sharn: City of Towers, and Monster Manual IV. Oh yeah, and there's Dragon which continues to support the new rules with various articles 12 times a year.
4. Design Philosophy - This is a personal thing for me. I buy WoTC products because there are some core philosophies that carry over from product to product (core d20 rules, campaign portability, options for players, making the game easier for DMs by providing pre-gen resources, etc.). I find it easier to fit in rules designed under the same philosophy than a 3rd party product that significantly diverges from the philosophy that I'm used to and have come to expect.
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