The Question of Balance

[buzz]

I used to buy tons of 3rd-party product, but then Mearls got a job at WotC.

 

[Alceste]

That's actually false. Its the B5, Conan, and other d20 games that get moved away from general. But standard third party books for the D&D game go in general.

But that's not the point of the thread. The point is are third party books real;ly as badly balanced as people seem to think. And if the answer is yes, provide examples of books within the last year or so.

The main issue with most third party books is just lack of knowledge about them. In some ways alot of people are scared of them.

In the beginning of 3.0 there were alot of books that had issues. This is simply not the case anymore, but getting people to change their opinion is very difficult.

 

[mythusmage]

Oh stuff balance. Here's what I want to know.

Does it have neat stuff?

Does it make sense?

Does it give some mundane item/person/critter an unrealistic advantage?

Does it uphold or violate the spirit of the game?

Does it introduce a needless complication?

Does it duplicate previous (and freely available for use in the product in question) work?

Is it well or poorly written?

Is it adaptable?

Just remember, simply because a supplement makes all fighters uberpowerful swordsmen at first level don't mean Hold Person stops working on them.

 

[PapersAndPaychecks]

The assumption here is that balance is necessary and desirable. I want to challenge that, because I think balance is inherently unachievable in a RPG, because different people optimise their characters for different things.

(Some people might question the word "optimise" but I think it's appropriate. A character can be optimised for roleplaying considerations rather than the maximum stacking combat mods, but it's still a process of optimisation.)

So I think the whole question of balance is largely a red herring. A class should be challenging, interesting to play, and significantly different from the other classes available, and as long as it's balanced enough that at least some people find it so, then it's valid.

 

[DragonLancer]

One interesting trend through many threads is the opinion that many third party books are unblanced and that is the reason people stay away from them. However, in threads that specifically talk about balance problems it is always the WotC prodcuts being discussed. I have a a decent collection of the third party books and for the most I have never found them to be better or worse over all in terms of balance.

Is it just an excuse or false premise that makes people stay away from third party books? Is it possible that the more widely known 3.0 books were the ones that had rules problems and people just assume that since they had problems the current ones have problems? Or are there still third party books being writen in the past year or so that have balance problems?

Personally, I take each book on a case-by-case basis. WotC have just has many unbalanced materials as any thrid party publisher.

IMO, the problem comes down to compatibility between feats and whathaveyou when mixing WotC and 3rd party materials.

 

[Janx]

Sliding the topic a little bit, my group of friends up north just buy WotC product. They buy all the WotC splat books, as they need them. They have most of them.

I guess they don't buy 3rd party books because they haven't thought to. They're barely aware that d20 exists. To them, it's just D&D. If it don't say D&D, it ain't.

Now I could ask them for more of their perspective, but that's just the sense I get. They're also not active online. Sure, they google and stuff, but they don't hang out in game stores, forums, or WotC's site. I don't think they even read Dragon magazine. Now and then, they swing by The Source and look at the rack of D&D products.

I would bet money, that these folks are your typical D&D buyer.

 

[buzz]

So I think the whole question of balance is largely a red herring.

I have to disagree with you, PAP.

Whether it's achievable or desirable, the fact of the matter is that D&D itself is very concerned with balance across a given character level. Maintaining this balance is part of what the WotC development team does for a living. Sure, D&D has some choices that are more optimal than others, but I don't think any of them are so blatantly obvious and superior that they are a no-brainer choice (e.g., elven F/M-U's or cavaliers in 1e). Or, at least, there's more than just a handful of paths to "optimal."

Ergo, I can understand being concerned with add-ons that throw balance too far out of whack. They start messing with the fun, and that's just not acceptable.

 

[buzz]

I would bet money, that these folks are your typical D&D buyer.

I'd tend to agree.

I also think that, as the d20 phenomenon has cooled, less and less of the d20 product you see on shelves is actually designed to be dropped into any D&D campaign. I feel like more of them are products that extend or change D&D's engine in various ways. So, if what I'm after is stuff for my vanilla D&D game, I can see learning to just gloss over non-WotC product.

Other than some cool RPGOjects stuff I got on sale at GenCon and Ptolus, I probably hadn't bought a d20STL product for D&D in over a year. The stuff almost never gets used in our games.

 

[Hussar]

I also think that, as the d20 phenomenon has cooled, less and less of the d20 product you see on shelves is actually designed to be dropped into any D&D campaign. I feel like more of them are products that extend or change D&D's engine in various ways. So, if what I'm after is stuff for my vanilla D&D game, I can see learning to just gloss over non-WotC product.

I think that's an important point. Products like Arcana Unearthed, Iron Heroes, C&C etc aren't meant to be plug and play with core rules. 99% of what comes out of WOTC is. If I want to pick up and use, say, Tome of Magic, I don't have to do a whole lot of work - I just use it. If I want to use Iron Heroes, it's pretty much an all or nothing proposition. I have to retool my entire game to use someone else's product.

But, if I don't want to do that work, then I'm pretty much stuck with WOTC, regardless of the quality of products coming out of other people's companies.

 

[(Psi)SeveredHead]

Most of my gaming purchases are D20 Modern. Most are PDFs. The previews never provide enough information. This is particularly a problem with very short PDFs.

Other than WotC Modern stuff, I've only bought a few things that a I really needed (eg adventures, maps of a prison) and the Colombia D20 campaign setting.