The resurrection problem. Case in point: Eberron

[Celebrim]

In D&D milieus, killing people in high positions on a permanent basis should be very difficult. For rulers of great nations and their families, True Resurrection will be available and so causing permanent death will be even more difficult.

I wouldn't even know where to begin looking for a 17th level cleric in my campaign world, and I'm the DM. In most nations there wouldn't be a 13th level cleric, much less a 17th. In the current campaign, the BBEG is an archmage (that is, can cast 9th level spells), and that's a big deal because an archmage hasn't been seen in the whole region (about a 500 mile radius) in 60 years. The number of living archmages in the whole game world is probably under 20, and the same is true for clerics. Most deities in the game world do not have a living 20th level cleric, and it's entirely possible that of the seven temples that form the core of officially sanctioned religions in the campaigns capital city that none of them have a member of the clergy anywhere in the world that's attained 17th level.

It would also, I think, be a source of substantial disaffection among commoners to see their rulers, their families, and high nobles and officials constantly brought back to life when they must all suffer permanent death.

Which is one of the many reasons ruling families are forbidden to do that by custom and tradition. Not that there aren't a few areas with immortal ruling families, but that's the exception rather than the rule and yes, they do tend to have social class conflicts of varying degrees.

True Resurrection (along with Miracle and Wish) should be removed from the inventory of standard spells that are readily available to clerics. They should only be special grants from the gods for exceptional services rendered or the fulfillment of prophecies.

They already are. They are 9th level spells.

Raise Dead only requires a 9th level cleric. That is not that high a level on a national scale, and certainly not out of line for the national scale of the Eberron setting.

Granted, very few settings have a power level such that 9th level spell casters are out of line with a national scale. Most of my nations will have one or more 9th level clerics. But Raise Dead is a comparitively restricted spell.

 

[Doug McCrae]

I always had some difficulties while trying to create some drama in a world where resurrection is avalaible.

I would recommend banning resurrection, at least as something generally available out there in the world. Eberron needs to have mass market low level magic in order to be Eberron, but it doesn't need the high power stuff.

You could keep raising the dead open as a possibility for the PCs only. Perhaps only the High Priestess of the Church of the Silver Flame can do it, and then only in the direst circumstances. Ofc rpg campaigns always are the 'direst circumstances', which has a cheapening effect, but hey ho.

 

[wingsandsword]

True Resurrection (along with Miracle and Wish) should be removed from the inventory of standard spells that are readily available to clerics. They should only be special grants from the gods for exceptional services rendered or the fulfillment of prophecies.

I've got to disagree there. 9th level spells are supposed to be special and unique, they are supposed to be massive and exceptional, being more than just lower level spells with bigger numbers.

If Wish, Miracle and True Resurrection are that common in your games, you should more re-think why do you have so many 17th+ level casters running around?

Even in higher-magic settings like Forgotten Realms or Planescape, a 17th level Cleric may well be the High Priest of his entire religion (especially smaller faiths), and some religions may well not even have a single cleric capable of 9th level spells.

Some 2nd Edition AD&D books, ones meant to emulate historical eras or styles, typically put the highest level Cleric in a fantasy medieval Europe at around 15th level (supposed to be the Pope, and maybe the Patriarch of Alexandria). Order of the Stick is a very popular bit of D&D fiction on the web, and the main characters don't know of a single friendly and good-aligned cleric of that level in the entire world (they suspect that the BBEG Goblin Cleric Redcloak, High Priest of his entire religion and supreme leader of all goblinoids, is about 17th level). The Grand Druid in 2e, the most senior ranking Druid on the planet, is 15th level, as written into the RAW (not to mention the similar limits on Assassins and Monks in 1e, where neither class could get anywhere near 20th level, I think Monks went to 17th level and Assassins to 16th, with only one of that level in the world).

If PC's get high enough level that they have access to magic like Wish and True Resurrection, as a DM you have chosen to run a high-powered game where the PC's should be major movers and shakers in the world. 6 17th level characters can influence world events in almost any D&D setting more than an entire normal army or most kings.

 

[Stalker0]

Keith Baker has said that the 4e raise dead ritual (which only works on those whose fate has not yet been fulfilled) was how he always envisioned resurrection magic working in Eberron.

Which would have been great if they had kept that clause in

Unfortunately while they talked about doing that in the preview in the actual book you just cast the ritual and your ready to go...no "unfufilled fate" needed.

 

[jimmifett]

Lets also not forget that in Eberron, you don't always get back the soul you wanted... unless you go to Dolurrh yourself and escort it back.

 

[howandwhy99]

Anyone who comes back from the dead loses a point of Con. Plus you could re-institute percentile resurrection chance, which is modified by constitution. Only True Res does not require a body. It is very high level, very few could ever cast it, and the cost could include sacrifice, perhaps the life of another or years from the caster's life. Both should be sufficient to deter anyone in the world with such power to frequently cast it w/o being evil themselves.

Lets also not forget that in Eberron, you don't always get back the soul you wanted... unless you go to Dolurrh yourself and escort it back.

That's an interesting twist. I'd work out the chances for this as being risen is part of the game, just far from a given for any character.

 

[TheAuldGrump]

As for 'took their own life'... if the person committed suicide, what makes you think that they want to come back? Or is allowed? Taking your own life is a no-no in many religions. Not coming back when called is probably pretty common for neutral through good characters - it is time to rest.

Evil characters on the other hand... let's see, you want me to give up time being tortured by unspeakably sadistic critters? Decisions, decisions, decisions....

But as for assassins... the assassin takes a trophy, no complete body. That's why it pays to hire a professional!

The Auld Grump

 

[Traveller From Afar]

One option might be just to nix the entire spell from the book, that's what I usually do. Or if that's too harsh, give it some extremely hard to find and randomly available material or situational requirements, which can be great plot hooks.

 

[RainOfSteel]

I wouldn't even know where to begin looking for a 17th level cleric in my campaign world, and I'm the DM.

That is an issue of the local milieu.

They already are. They are 9th level spells.

But Raise Dead is a comparitively restricted spell.

Again, those are issues of the local milieu. In the straight rules, when a cleric reaches the appropriate level, the listed spells are available and can be freely chosen.

I've got to disagree there. 9th level spells are supposed to be special and unique, they are supposed to be massive and exceptional, being more than just lower level spells with bigger numbers.

Those are conditions imposed on a milieu per the DM's design, which is entirely reasonable, as the DM gets to make decisions like that. They are not part of the RAW.

If Wish, Miracle and True Resurrection are that common in your games,

Common? What are you talking about? I never gave any indication that I thought they should be or were common.

If they were only available to rulers (or the occasional adventurer), which is what I was talking about, they'd be quite rare.

Even in higher-magic settings like Forgotten Realms or Planescape, a 17th level Cleric may well be the High Priest of his entire religion (especially smaller faiths), and some religions may well not even have a single cleric capable of 9th level spells.

If we're talking the Forgotten Realms, it is dripping with 20+ level spellcasters. Casters of 30+ level and even 40+ level are not unheard of.

If you read the Fiendish Codexes and related sources, and you check the CRs, you will see that there is a basic assumption of PCs higher than 20th level, sometimes much higher. At that point, the party cleric is almost certainly going to select True Resurrection as a spell. I would. Unless the DM says, "No." I would hope the DM would politely make such a possibility clear before the campaign began to avoid unpleasant surprises.

------------------------

I was glancing through my Eberron Campaign Setting and found the Keeper's Fang on page 266. If used to strike a killing blow, it draws the target's soul into the blade and then raise/resurrection effects do not work.

 

[Celebrim]

That is an issue of the local milieu.

Again, those are issues of the local milieu. In the straight rules, when a cleric reaches the appropriate level, the listed spells are available and can be freely chosen.

Those are conditions imposed on a milieu per the DM's design, which is entirely reasonable, as the DM gets to make decisions like that. They are not part of the RAW.

Yeah, I agree they are issues of local milieu, and not part of the RAW.

But conversely, widespread accessibility of True Resurrection would also be an issue of milieu and not part of the RAW. The fact that True Resurrection is a 9th level spell and available only to spellcasters of 17th level or higher is part of the RAW, and can be reasonably understood to make access to such spells very rare.

There is nothing in the RAW that insists that 17th level spellcasters need be common, and much that suggests or indicates otherwise. Ultimately, demographics are always a DM's decision. If you decide that every town above 5000 people has a 17th level spellcaster, then that's going to have certain profound implications on your campaign world. Conversely, if you decide that 17th level spellcasters occur on a frequency of about 1 in 5,000,000 individuals in a points of light type setting where overall populations are quite low, then one of the implications of that is that its relatively unlikely that Kings will have one on call. It's not impossible of course, and were it occurs it should be noted as part of your world building, but still relatively unlikely.

If we're talking the Forgotten Realms, it is dripping with 20+ level spellcasters. Casters of 30+ level and even 40+ level are not unheard of.

That's certainly true, and I'm willing to laugh with you about the utter banality and absurdity of the Forgotten Realms campaign setting where ordinary tavern owners wield as great of power as the mightiest heroes of o
other worlds. Sure, just about anything about FR makes no sense if you think about it.

But you didn't bring it up as a case in point. You brought up Eberron. I'm sure we can find tons of things that make no sense at all when it comes to the Forgotten Realms continuity, but your point about continuity issues in Eberron falls flat for me because Eberron is explicitly a world where high level characters are rare but also where the implications of magic are somewhat well considered. It's not the geek-boy-look-at-me-spasm-of-gosh-wow-DM-PC-empowering mess that FR tends to. So, the objections made that the more excessible sorts of resurrection like Raise Dead are highly limited spells that are easily foiled ring true to me with regard to the assumptions of Eberron.

If you read the Fiendish Codexes and related sources, and you check the CRs, you will see that there is a basic assumption of PCs higher than 20th level, sometimes much higher.

First of all, is it a basic assumption that the Fiendish Codexes and the like are in play? All I see is a basic assumption that high level PC's could exist. And second of all, if the PC's are 17th level or higher, then that by no means influences general demographics in anyway. If your world has every century or so a half-dozen towering figures he engage in mighty heroics and change the face of the world, and this time it happens to be the PC's, it doesn't change the facts of life for either the majority of inhabitants or even the majority of kings. What the PC's do still for most of the world is something that happens 'over there'. The PC's are figures of legend and song and most of the world is probably convinced that half of what they here about them is exagerration, and legend and song being what they are, half of the time they are probably right.

Clearly the PC's weren't around to save King Boranel's older brothers.

It should be worth noting I think though that in my 25+ years of play, I've never been the DM when 17th level characters were in play, and only once was I the PC with such a character (and I didn't get that one 'fairly' by starting at 1st level). While I know that many groups engage in very high level play regularly and I can certainly see attractions to that or even the necessity of it if in the long run you don't want to abandon your characters, I don't think it is the default assumption that everyone must play that way. I generally plan campaigns to wrap up between 12th and 15th level, and rarely do I ever get such a string of unbroken gaming with the same group that I get them to that point.