Ahnehnois
First Post
Pretty important, sure. But I would think that trying to work without any of the core classes could cause problems.
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D&D 5E The Return of the HealBot
- Thread starter eprieur
- Start date
Stormonu
Legend
I very much disliked 4E's approach towards healing and am glad they have moved back towards where it is a tactical choice you have to make between healing an ally or making an attack - not getting to do both at once. I wouldn't be against seeing PCs having access to their own methods of recovery (ala 2nd wind, potions or items that can restore HP) so cleric healing dependacy can be lessened and they get to use their other abilities more often. But again, I'll stress I don't want to see the cleric being able to both heal and attack in the same action. One or the other, please.
I'd actually like to see less in-combat healing be required and go back to 1E/2e rules where if you got dropped to 0 hp or less, you weren't getting back into combat for a whole day, at the very least, even if you were healed back up to positive hp. Going down in a fight should have very harsh repercussions - with little chance of getting back into the fight, IMO. The yo-yo effect of being on the ground one second with your guts hanging out and back up in the fight 6 second later is even more comical than the Holy Grail Black Knight skit.
I'd actually like to see less in-combat healing be required and go back to 1E/2e rules where if you got dropped to 0 hp or less, you weren't getting back into combat for a whole day, at the very least, even if you were healed back up to positive hp. Going down in a fight should have very harsh repercussions - with little chance of getting back into the fight, IMO. The yo-yo effect of being on the ground one second with your guts hanging out and back up in the fight 6 second later is even more comical than the Holy Grail Black Knight skit.
Well the cure minor wound is situational and in theory very weak. Unless it allow to bring back someone to 1 HP in the middle of a combat? That would make it pretty useable if someone goes under.
One of the thing that you also have to consider is why would I do something else then cure light wound in my scenario. I mean pretty much all the level 1 spell suck completely. +1 AC for 1 minute? Wow I feel like a real hero now. For a daily maybe +1 ac for the whole day? I mean healing is 'permanent' meaning that if you heal the fighter from 5 hp to 15, he keep the hp after the fight. Where if you cast something like +1 atk for 1 minute, after 3 rounds it's over and your spell is gone. I mean those spells are barely worth being at-wills.
Spiritual Weapon for level 2 is the only spell that might be worth it if you feel the fight is going to take forever (Aid is just another heal basically and it's even worse since you don't even get to cast it in the fight).
I'm not saying it has to be like 4.0 but a level 1 cleric in 4.0 gets to use: Channel divinity * 1 (each fight), healing word * 2 (each fight, minor action), 1 encounter power that are somewhat meaningfull right now (fear, direct damage with power bonus, melee attack that heal, etc.), 1 daily that will do a pretty massive effect for a level 1 spell and if that's not enough you have 2 at-wills that are usefull. (To be fair in next 1 of the at-wills is replaced by your basic attack which has to be usefull (dex or str). The only good at will is lance of faith if you pick the laser cleric but you get screwed the rounds you want to heal since you can't cast 2 spells.
I played a cleric yesterday, did 2-3 cure minor wounds, my only level 1 spell cure light wounds and basic attack the rest of the time. Got to level 2, the only difference is I can cast cure light wounds twice now.
One of the thing that you also have to consider is why would I do something else then cure light wound in my scenario. I mean pretty much all the level 1 spell suck completely. +1 AC for 1 minute? Wow I feel like a real hero now. For a daily maybe +1 ac for the whole day? I mean healing is 'permanent' meaning that if you heal the fighter from 5 hp to 15, he keep the hp after the fight. Where if you cast something like +1 atk for 1 minute, after 3 rounds it's over and your spell is gone. I mean those spells are barely worth being at-wills.
Spiritual Weapon for level 2 is the only spell that might be worth it if you feel the fight is going to take forever (Aid is just another heal basically and it's even worse since you don't even get to cast it in the fight).
I'm not saying it has to be like 4.0 but a level 1 cleric in 4.0 gets to use: Channel divinity * 1 (each fight), healing word * 2 (each fight, minor action), 1 encounter power that are somewhat meaningfull right now (fear, direct damage with power bonus, melee attack that heal, etc.), 1 daily that will do a pretty massive effect for a level 1 spell and if that's not enough you have 2 at-wills that are usefull. (To be fair in next 1 of the at-wills is replaced by your basic attack which has to be usefull (dex or str). The only good at will is lance of faith if you pick the laser cleric but you get screwed the rounds you want to heal since you can't cast 2 spells.
I played a cleric yesterday, did 2-3 cure minor wounds, my only level 1 spell cure light wounds and basic attack the rest of the time. Got to level 2, the only difference is I can cast cure light wounds twice now.
The yo-yo effect of 4e healing - since it was largely minor actions or riders on other effects prolonged the time a fight would last. Sometimes it's ok, but often it just makes the combat drag along and makes it anti climatic.
I actually liked healing in 3e after you got the heal spell. It was some serious healing, but the cleric would have to sacrifice his standard action to do it. In other words, it was used rather rarely, but would be viable in boss fights and such. Pre-heal the healing was just too minor compared to the hp/damage to waste a standard action.
In a way I do like the serious penalty for going to 0 hp, but it's really boring with a character that can't do anything meaningful for maybe hours of real time.
I actually liked healing in 3e after you got the heal spell. It was some serious healing, but the cleric would have to sacrifice his standard action to do it. In other words, it was used rather rarely, but would be viable in boss fights and such. Pre-heal the healing was just too minor compared to the hp/damage to waste a standard action.
In a way I do like the serious penalty for going to 0 hp, but it's really boring with a character that can't do anything meaningful for maybe hours of real time.
Blackwarder
Adventurer
Am I the only one who bothered to read the Healing ruls in the new packet 
Warder
Warder
avin
First Post
Clerics able to hit and heal in 4E was the best thing that ever happened to healers in D&D and should stay for DDN.
It was always a pain to find a healer in our groups, the last guy who chose his class was the healer or there was no healer anyway. Healboting is absolutely boring, at least inside my circle of RPG players...
It was always a pain to find a healer in our groups, the last guy who chose his class was the healer or there was no healer anyway. Healboting is absolutely boring, at least inside my circle of RPG players...
Stormonu
Legend
That may be the fault of the limited spell list in the packet, but there are plenty of awesome 1st level cleric spells in 1E-3E. Bless used to affect the entire party for a combat with some nice bonuses, Command effectively nullified a target for at least a round and Sanctuary could be a soft form of Stealth in the right hands, and so forth. (And I think its worth noting that in BECMI D&D, 1st level clerics had NO spells at all).
Blackbrrd said:
Perhaps being out "all day" after dropping to 0 hp might be too much - it could be dropped to, say, 15 minutes and/or adding the fatigued condition. If fights go fairly quick, being out of action for a few minutes (say no more than 3-5 minutes) shouldn't be too bad a drawback. It's something I missed in both 3E and 4E. It's worth being a "gritty" optional rule at least.
<Edit> Also, back in my 1E/2E days, if someone did get KO'ed, the group usually retreated & camped, so the KOed player wasn't sitting for hours twiddling their thumbs.
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There have been several attempts now to fix healing so that clerics can do something else with their spells.
1e/2e clerics had all sorts of cool spells, but the pressure was strong to memorize nothing but cure spells.
3e allowed spontaneous healing, but then you just got to watch as all your cool spells evaporated into spontaneous healing. The pressure was even more immense because now you got pressured during the game too.
4e used minor actions for cure spells, and powers for other abilities. You still got pressured to be a pacifist cleric, but at least you could do some other stuff. Having healing spells be minor does indeed make healing fairly trivial and "gamey" though.
Myself, I think the spells themselves should be redesigned so that most have some sort of healing or damage reducing element to them. War clerics have spells that reduce damage in for allies, and increase damage out so that they heal by not taking damage and ending fights sooner. Death clerics heal by vampiric necromancy, sucking life along with their damaging spells. Druids heal through shapechanging, entombing the wounded in the earth to recover overnight, or even growing trees with magic seeds that have healing potion fruit.
Still cool spells that allow you to do badass stuff, but sneak in a little bit of healing, defense or damage reduction so they can fulfill the leader role.
1e/2e clerics had all sorts of cool spells, but the pressure was strong to memorize nothing but cure spells.
3e allowed spontaneous healing, but then you just got to watch as all your cool spells evaporated into spontaneous healing. The pressure was even more immense because now you got pressured during the game too.
4e used minor actions for cure spells, and powers for other abilities. You still got pressured to be a pacifist cleric, but at least you could do some other stuff. Having healing spells be minor does indeed make healing fairly trivial and "gamey" though.
Myself, I think the spells themselves should be redesigned so that most have some sort of healing or damage reducing element to them. War clerics have spells that reduce damage in for allies, and increase damage out so that they heal by not taking damage and ending fights sooner. Death clerics heal by vampiric necromancy, sucking life along with their damaging spells. Druids heal through shapechanging, entombing the wounded in the earth to recover overnight, or even growing trees with magic seeds that have healing potion fruit.
Still cool spells that allow you to do badass stuff, but sneak in a little bit of healing, defense or damage reduction so they can fulfill the leader role.
Yeah, but that is kind of hard for us new-school guys to accept. Going through the Lost City with 2e, we camped a lot, and that was even with 2 multi-classed clerics. It is hard to keep forward momentum and tension with that much camping, and it is hard to stay alive if you don't do that much camping.
It gets better at high levels of course, once you have the equipment, potions, and spells that you take less damage in the first place, but at low levels it stalls the game quite a bit.
The common adage in Pathfinder is that healing only slows you down, and a dead orc does no damage. I hope they can achieve this sort of balance with next. A healer should never be mandatory and people should have freedom to play any class they like.
Not to mention debuffs are basically pro-active healing- and a lot more fun.
Not to mention debuffs are basically pro-active healing- and a lot more fun.
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