D&D 5E The Return of the HealBot

[Jester David]

So now it's back to worse in the new packet, where once again, a design from the 80s (70s?) where heals are from the same pool of spells as every other spell is back there.
...
Why can't they make healing spells on a separate spell spool? What is so hard about it? At least it will be worth it to actually read the spells instead of just skimming to where the heals are.

4.0 had it right, please, bring it back. Make it daily I don't care, but it has to be from another spell pool and basically clerics have to be forbidden by the rules to take their normal spell slots for crap like cure light wounds. 1 pool for heals, 1 pool for the rest, balance it until it work.

Here's the thing... some people like playing the HealBot. Shouldn't they have a class they can play? Changing the cleric to cater to everyone who doesn't like it and wants to play a different class is taking a class away from everyone who liked it.

Don't want to play a HealBot cleric? Then don't. Play a cleric of a war or trickster god and never memorize any heals. Encourage someone to take the Healer speciality and rely on kits and potions.

The other method has its downsides.
4e allowed the cleric to attack and heal at the same time. This then necessitated fights where the cleric would have to heal mid-combat. Instead of occasionally being the combat healer and mostly the out-of-combat healer, the cleric was forced to always have healing on their mind. It was an Encounter resource.

 

[Rhenny]

The common adage in Pathfinder is that healing only slows you down, and a dead orc does no damage. I hope they can achieve this sort of balance with next. A healer should never be mandatory and people should have freedom to play any class they like.

Not to mention debuffs are basically pro-active healing- and a lot more fun.

This was totally true for prior playtests since monsters were so wimpy, and since the monsters have not been changed yet, it probably still holds true. If a group of 4 adventurers can kill 4 foes in 1 round, they won't need much healing. Even if they only kill 2, monster "to hit" scores are still relatively low, so fighters and clerics can block for squishy PCs. Fighters with protector can also block and absorb damage.

 

[eprieur]

If it's bad design, it's bad design, it doesn't matter if some people like to play that class or if it's the strongest class in the world.

I argue that the choice is actually no choice at all most of the time. If you have the choice between +1 ac for 3 rounds or 1D8 + 4 (potentially 1D8 + 7) you take the later. It's not really a choice. Choices is when you have too many options and you have to pick the best one out of many.

If we were arguing about 1D8 + 4 heal versus 1D8 AND + 1 ac for 3 rounds then we would be talking about choices. The idea is to move away from spells that are boring and weak to stuff like radiant waves, where enemies take 2D6 damage and friendlies are healed 1D6 for example.

The easiest way by far to balance this is to make it available in another pool (healing word). It's guaranteed to work. Or you can try other option that are harder to balance and have failed many times in the past. 4.0 had temp hp but this seem out in this edition but that was one way to have a spell prevent damage. And actually right now the best damage preventer is by far the 'protector' fighter with a shield.

 

[Ahnehnois]

Here's the thing... some people like playing the HealBot.

This is kind of a remarkable thing to me that some people don't get this. In the real world, the privilege of spending your days being an overworked healer is highly sought after and respected in the form of a variety of healthcare professions. Combat prowess is relevant only in limited contexts, and has mixed connotations, some positive, some negative. I would think that playing a healer in an rpg would have a more positive connotation than some in this thread seem to be suggesting.

Certainly, I would much rather fantasize about healing people than about killing them and taking their stuff.

 

[Cadence]

Here's the thing... some people like playing the HealBot. Shouldn't they have a class they can play?
Don't want to play a HealBot cleric? Then don't. Play a cleric of a war or trickster god and never memorize any heals. Encourage someone to take the Healer speciality and rely on kits and potions.

I can't figure out if I've just been oblivious, or if I've always played with great groups of players. But of four of my dozen favorite characters have been clerics, played with three different groups of players, 1 in 1e, 2 in 2e, and 1 in 3.5... and I never realized I was supposed to be a heal-bot. I haven't gotten to play in PF yet with channel replacing turning.

As far as healing and clerics in the new one -- I don't want the party to have to camp after every fight. I don't want a game where the party gets a full recovery after every successful combat and can keep going ad infinitum like its a video game. And I don't want healing that would be miraculous in the real world (from deaths door to full health in seconds) to become trivial and mundane.

In a nod to the remarkable recovery of action heroes in the movies, and to smoothness of game play, I would be totally open to everyone having one second-wind/healing-surge a day, either by itself, or as an option for spending a single action point for the day.

 

[GX.Sigma]

Am I the only one who bothered to read the Healing ruls in the new packet

Warder

The first one requires you to rest for one or more hours (which you can't do in the middle of a dungeon, so it's the same as sleeping it off), and the second one is just nonsense (heal only up to bloodied value... then make a DC 10 Con check and heal the rest of the way).

 

[Blackwarder]

The first one requires you to rest for one or more hours (which you can't do in the middle of a dungeon, so it's the same as sleeping it off), and the second one is just nonsense (heal only up to bloodied value... then make a DC 10 Con check and heal the rest of the way).

Those are optional rules, the core rule is the same as it was before, rest for 5 min and roll your HD...

There are dials in the system for several styles of play...

Warder

 

[Mattachine]

I loved that 2nd edition made clerics actually pick deities or spheres, and then actually use them. That meant that while most clerics had some healing, their spells were focused on their area of faith.

I hated how clerics in all the other editions could pull out a huge variety of spells, which often had no business being cast by their followers:

* cleric of water god using flame strike
* cleric of pain/suffering god using heal
* cleric of earth god using air walk

and so on.

I'm tired of generic cleric spell lists. Make them pick and choose.

 

[Chris_Nightwing]

There are lots of preferences here, I'll try summarize my current view a bit better:

Magical healing should exist. Magical healing should not act to simply extend combat. Therefore magical healing in combat should consume a resource that could be used to do something else.

Clerics should not have to be the ones consuming those resources. Besides, not all deities really go in for healing. The healing deity does though, of course, so his or her Clerics are probably happy to consume their own resources to heal. These need to be limited in some sense, however, so that this type of Cleric doesn't become essential.

I propose that there exist rituals to grant healing outside of combat. The party makes a decision to turn a communal resource, gold, into healing. The creation of healing potions should also be a ritual, at slightly greater cost. These rituals should be available by use of a Heal (Wisdom) check. Hit dice are sort of achieving this, and I think the ritual could integrate with spending HD.

In combat, a character can use healing potions (a party resource), and there could be a second-wind action to spend a HD (his or her own resource). Clerics of the lifegiver will then be the only clerics able to heal, preferably via channel divinity. The divine speciality should give access to a specific god's channel divinity powers, hence anyone could in theory be the healer.

 

[Leatherhead]

I like how I wasn't the first person to say "ritual healing" in this thread.

Here's the thing... some people like playing the HealBot

The question that must be asked, is "Why?"

Do they enjoy the act of fixing people? Because it wouldn't matter how they heal so long as they can. Playing doctor could be even more attractive if anyone could do it, instead of a select few classes.

Do they enjoy being a "support character?" I find that type prefers warlords to clerics, mostly for the constant shifting and buffing. Bottle up some of that into abilities for them and it would make them even happier than being a pure healbot.

Do they enjoy the relative simplicity of the role? This might be hard to mimic with another class. Even the big dumb barbarian who goes charging headlong into the fray has to deal with picking out targets and positioning. A healbot, not so much, just target the player who is in a bloody pulp on the ground and call it a round. A ranged class would possibly be best for them, if cover isn't an issue.

Do they enjoy the necessity of the role? This one is actually a bit problematic. I have met people who play healers just so that they can be the center of group dynamics. Very grating to play with in my experience, and I am not quite sure how to appease that desire (or if I even want to).