D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Chaosmancer]

Nawp! Doesn't say "because." That's your invention. The reality is that it is AND are granted powers, meaning you do the roleplay as a cleric or an acolyte, and if you are a cleric you are also granted powers.

There is no roleplay associated with the domains. Not like how you are using it.

Since you seem to have forgotten.

"If you're playing a cleric or a character with the Acolyte background, decide which god your deity serves or served, and consider the deity's suggested domains when selecting your character's domain."

That sentence is not badly written. You just don't like that which soundly defeats your arguments.

Forgot what? That you don't read a post before you respond to it? I literally quoted that exact same sentence. And broke it down for you. Just because you choose to bold things and misread the sentence doesn't mean you are right. Heck the sentence is already suspect because it says you should decide "which god your deity serves or served" which is a nonsense statement for most options and clearly shows that this sentence was rewritten at least once.

And, to repeat what I said, that you ignored. Acolytes don't pick Domains. Just like Outlanders don't pick Circles or Archetypes and Sages don't pick Otherworldly Patrons.

 

[Maxperson]

There is no roleplay associated with the domains. Not like how you are using it.

There is only one way that it isn't how I'm looking at it, and that's if an individual(like you) decides to completely ignore something that is eminently roleplayable and opts not to roleplay.

 

[Helldritch]

This literally has nothing to do with what we are discussing.

Ouch... It has everything to do with what we were discussing. That you wish to dismiss this is beyond logic.

Uh huh, and therefore since you can have different sects following the same aspect of the god, then there isn't really anything in the domain that makes it special for the acolyte. Domains are only the mechanics for clerics. That is it. Take for instance the PHB version of Moradin. He only has the Knowledge domain.

Of course the domain is important. Saying otherwise is complete BS.

Could you have a worshiper of Moradin as a Master of the Forge and master of craft? Yes. Could you have a worshiper of Moradin as the God of warriors protecting the home? Yes. Could you have a worshiper of Moradin as the aspect of stone and mountains? Yes.

Of course! But all these aspects could spur some branches off of the main church where some branches would see Moradin as the Keeper of Secrets and thus would conclude that all secrets must be kept for Moradin. An other branch might see that since Moradin IS the keeper of secret for the dwarven, it means that secrets are to be kept from non dwarven but shared. Others might even see Moradin as a deity to appeal if you want to find secrets.

The domain has nothing to do with it. The aspects of Moradin, the things his worship is related to, that's what matters.

Both yes and know. As with all things, Moradin is more than his domain(s) (if you count the forge domain). You can apply his domains to his portfolio and thus create more than one sect for each combinations of domain(s) and portfolio(s). This makes for an interesting RP religion wise.

And none of that requires Domains. Domains are only the mechanical tool for Cleric subclasses.

As shown per Maxperson and his quote on the Acolytes. You are far off the road. Only the cleric has any power comming from a domain, but the Acolyte has to consider which domain/aspect of his deity he wishes to follow. That says a lot. Wheter you want or not. Denying this is denying the words written in the PHB. But if you wish to homebrew a limitation, fine by me.

Think of this for a moment. Chauntea is the Goddess of Agriculture. She has only a single Domain. Life. So, does picking the Life domain tell you anything about how your character worships Chauntea? No. You might worship her as the goddess of the harvest, or the goddess of spring growth, or the goddess of harmony with nature, or the goddess of mothers, none of which have anything to do with Domains.

And? This is the same example as with Moradin. And nothing in the rules prevents a DM to chose an other domain for Chauntea either. Not all gods needs to have many sects/churches. Only those you wish. Geez, why are you restraining yourself so much?

Domains =/= Aspects/Sects/ect

Wrong. Domains do not necessarily equals Aspects/sects/ect... but they can. Why would you restrict yourself?

And that question has zero bearing on Domains, which are cleric subclasses. I'm not saying you can't have aspects. I'm saying that a fighter doesn't get to pick a domain, they get to pick a Martial Archetype. Domains might hint at ideas for differentiating a god or goddess into different aspects, but they aren't related directly.

We never said that the fighter (or any non cleric) will benefits from a domain with spells and powers. (Tough it might be fun to have/try). We said that the non caster HAS TO consider which domain of his deity he wishes to follow. By choosing the acolyte background, the player chooses a restriction for himself to follow. And that is great! No two clerics of the same god is forced to be same. They might even be rivals. The same with acolytes.

You tried to choose deities with only one domain as a way to debunk the Acolyte background. But it does not work that way. Of course, with a god with only one domain, the choice is non existent (but I have shown you that you can create many sects/branches anyways with only one domain if you want to). BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTT! As soon as a deity has two or more domains, the choice becomes quite important! It can define a character as much as it will define a cleric. Yes no power will come from that choice. But it can spur quite a roleplay spin that can translate into loads of fun and to a character with a very vibrant background.

 

[Chaosmancer]

There is only one way that it isn't how I'm looking at it, and that's if an individual(like you) decides to completely ignore something that is eminently roleplayable and opts not to roleplay.

So are you saying that there is only one way to Worship Chanteau? Or Oghma, or Talos, or Obad-Hai, or Trithereon, or Boccob, ect ect ect.

Because all of those deities, the MAJORITY of deities only have a single domain. So, since you are claiming that there is RP tied to "picking a domain" which allows for sects and splinter groups, then these deities can't have those, because you can't pick anything else. You are stuck using only a single domain.



Me? I say that is nonsense. Domains aren't aspects, they aren't religious splinter groups, they aren't sects. They are cleric subclasses. That's it. You don't pick a domain unless you are a cleric, because only clerics get cleric subclasses.

 

[Maxperson]

Both yes and know. As with all things, Moradin is more than his domain(s) (if you count the forge domain). You can apply his domains to his portfolio and thus create more than one sect for each combinations of domain(s) and portfolio(s). This makes for an interesting RP religion wise.

So interestingly enough, in 5e a god's domains ARE the portfolio.

"In a pantheon, every deity has influence over different aspects of mortal life and civilization, called a deity's domain. All the domains over which a deity has influence are called the deity's portfolio."

@Chaosmancer's notion that somehow domains are not part of roleplaying or religious sects is astounding.

 

[Maxperson]

So are you saying that there is only one way to Worship Chanteau? Or Oghma, or Talos, or Obad-Hai, or Trithereon, or Boccob, ect ect ect.

Me: "domains can result in different sects."

You: "So are you saying that there is only one way to worship..."

Because all of those deities, the MAJORITY of deities only have a single domain. So, since you are claiming that there is RP tied to "picking a domain" which allows for sects and splinter groups, then these deities can't have those, because you can't pick anything else. You are stuck using only a single domain.

And in the next sentences you acknowledge me saying that there isn't only one way to worship!

I'm not sure why you would think that a single domain can only be roleplayed in one way. We'll go with something simple like Tempus and War. One sect might believe that wars are inevitable, but glorious things. When war occurs we must go there to participate. Another sect might think that war is so glorious that they need to start them and work towards that goal. A third sect might have a completely different view on war than the first two.

Me? I say that is nonsense. Domains aren't aspects, they aren't religious splinter groups, they aren't sects. They are cleric subclasses. That's it. You don't pick a domain unless you are a cleric, because only clerics get cleric subclasses.

Doesn't matter what you say. In 5e domains are the god's portfolio and all the roleplaying and sects are derived from that. We also have RAW that says that they ARE sects. Below is from the clerics class under Divine Domains

"Your choice might correspond to a particular sect dedicated to your deity. Apollo, for example, could be worshiped in one region as Phoebus ("radiant") Apollo, emphasizing his influence over the Light domain, and in a different place as Apollo Acesius ("healing"), emphasizing his association with the Life domain."

I can't wait to see how you deny this one.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Ouch... It has everything to do with what we were discussing. That you wish to dismiss this is beyond logic.

No, it actually doesn't. You guys are trying to force Domains to be something they aren't.

Of course the domain is important. Saying otherwise is complete BS.

Of course it is important. You can't play a cleric without a subclass. But it ISN'T important to setting up splinter groups or worship of different aspects of the deties.

Actually, I keep forgetting we have IRL deities in the book. Let's take Aphrodite. First of all, she is given in the PHB the Domain of Light. This is... very odd as a religious thing. She was associated with love, madness, beauty and the ocean but not the sun or fire. But, look at some of her worship, in Sparta we have evidence that she was a War Goddess. So, if the point was that Domains represented the different ways that they were worshiped, then we would have given her the Domain of War, but we don't. Because that isn't what domains ARE.

Of course! But all these aspects could spur some branches off of the main church where some branches would see Moradin as the Keeper of Secrets and thus would conclude that all secrets must be kept for Moradin. An other branch might see that since Moradin IS the keeper of secret for the dwarven, it means that secrets are to be kept from non dwarven but shared. Others might even see Moradin as a deity to appeal if you want to find secrets.

I don't disagree with any of this... but none of this applies to any domains. There isn't the "Domain of Secrets" that led to a splintering of Moradin into a god of secrets. The Domains are only listed as an idea for which cleric subclasses are the best fit for the different gods. And they aren't accurate for a lot of them. We don'y have a Love Domain or a Beauty Domain, those became Peace. And Aphrodite certainly isn't a goddess of Peace. But, we can take the domain, use the mechanics, and work from there to get RP based on the actual information of the deities we are trying to represent.

Apsects =/= Domains.

Both yes and know. As with all things, Moradin is more than his domain(s) (if you count the forge domain). You can apply his domains to his portfolio and thus create more than one sect for each combinations of domain(s) and portfolio(s). This makes for an interesting RP religion wise.

But you can create sects OUTSIDE of domains. You can create interesting religions without even looking at the Domains. Domains are just cleric subclasses. They aren't required for the RP.

And, before you start going on a "but they help" tangent. Go back, double-check Max's claim. His claim is that the Acolyte chooses a domain, because they need to for RP, and that this is the reason that Iuz (who he claims is a demigod) has the Death Domain. Because, Max insists that Iuz is still a demigod in 5e, even though the definition of demigod has changed, and if Iuz was a demigod then he wouldn't be able to grant spells to clerics.

We know that Iuz does grant spells to clerics though, because he has the Death Domain and is mentioned by name in the Death Domain. However, Max is now insisting that the only reason Iuz has the Death Domain is because he needs it so the non-spellcasting Acolyte can have a Domain. He is saying it is required for the RP, and that is why it exists, even though Iuz has no clerics (as his claim)

This is why I am insistent on this being separate. The domains exist as cleric subclasses. That is their design purpose. They do not exist so that anyone with an Acolyte background can RP being a member of the faithful. That is not the design purpose behind Domains.

As shown per Maxperson and his quote on the Acolytes. You are far off the road. Only the cleric has any power comming from a domain, but the Acolyte has to consider which domain/aspect of his deity he wishes to follow. That says a lot. Wheter you want or not. Denying this is denying the words written in the PHB. But if you wish to homebrew a limitation, fine by me.

And for the vast majority of them then, there is no choice. The majority of Deities have only a single domain. It is rare to have two. None of them have three.

And, as shown when I looked in the Acolyte entry in the PHB, there is nowhere that is says you pick a Domain. I could post the entirety of the Acolyte if you want. Max's quote says "when selecting your character's domain" the only time your character selects a domain is when you are a cleric, because Domain is the name of your subclass.

I am not denying aspects of gods that can be worshiped. I'm not denying that sects or splinter groups exist. I am denying that Cleric Subclasses are anything more than Cleric Subclasses.

And? This is the same example as with Moradin. And nothing in the rules prevents a DM to chose an other domain for Chauntea either. Not all gods needs to have many sects/churches. Only those you wish. Geez, why are you restraining yourself so much?

I am not restraining myself. I'm showing you that even when you have a single domain, you can have multiple sects, because Domains are only cleric subclasses. Everything else you are talking about, WHICH I AGREE WITH AND LIKE, are not tied to Domains. Domains have nothing to do with it. Domains are cleric subclasses.

Wrong. Domains do not necessarily equals Aspects/sects/ect... but they can. Why would you restrict yourself?

This is like saying I'm restricting myself because not all performances are tied to Bard Colleges. You are demanding a restriction by tying subclasses to something they are not tied to. For no reason.

We never said that the fighter (or any non cleric) will benefits from a domain with spells and powers. (Tough it might be fun to have/try). We said that the non caster HAS TO consider which domain of his deity he wishes to follow. By choosing the acolyte background, the player chooses a restriction for himself to follow. And that is great! No two clerics of the same god is forced to be same. They might even be rivals. The same with acolytes.

You tried to choose deities with only one domain as a way to debunk the Acolyte background. But it does not work that way. Of course, with a god with only one domain, the choice is non existent (but I have shown you that you can create many sects/branches anyways with only one domain if you want to). BUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUUTTTTTTTT! As soon as a deity has two or more domains, the choice becomes quite important! It can define a character as much as it will define a cleric. Yes no power will come from that choice. But it can spur quite a roleplay spin that can translate into loads of fun and to a character with a very vibrant background.

No, you are wrong. I'm sorry, you just are. The non-caster does not need to consider the domain, because the domain is the cleric subclass. They need to consider the deity. They need to consider any sects or versions of the dogma they wish to create. You can worship Odin as Knowledge and War and Trickery and Poetry and the Patron of Alcohol. You could be part of a sect that worships Odin entirely as the God of Drunken Stunts.

But you don't need Domains to do that. You need to know something about the deity in question. The two are not connected.

 

[Chaosmancer]

Me: "domains can result in different sects."

You: "So are you saying that there is only one way to worship..."

If there is only one domain, and these are inextricably linked to the worship of different sects and not, you know, Cleric Subclasses like they really are... then yeah. How can all these gods and goddesses with single domains work the way you are INSISTING it works.

The real answer is, they don't. The domains are cleric subclasses. The rest of it is RP that is not directly tied to picking a Domain.

And in the next sentences you acknowledge me saying that there isn't only one way to worship!

I'm not sure why you would think that a single domain can only be roleplayed in one way. We'll go with something simple like Tempus and War. One sect might believe that wars are inevitable, but glorious things. When war occurs we must go there to participate. Another sect might think that war is so glorious that they need to start them and work towards that goal. A third sect might have a completely different view on war than the first two.

Sure, they could. And so an acolyte deciding how to worship Tempus doesn't pick a domain for their character. But they can worship an Aspect of Tempus and be part of a sect. The two concepts are not connected. Domains are cleric subclasses, that is it. You don't pick a cleric subclass unless you are a cleric. If you want to RP different parts of a religion, you do that, which has nothing to do with picking a Domain.

Doesn't matter what you say. In 5e domains are the god's portfolio and all the roleplaying and sects are derived from that. We also have RAW that says that they ARE sects. Below is from the clerics class under Divine Domains

"Your choice might correspond to a particular sect dedicated to your deity. Apollo, for example, could be worshiped in one region as Phoebus ("radiant") Apollo, emphasizing his influence over the Light domain, and in a different place as Apollo Acesius ("healing"), emphasizing his association with the Life domain."

I can't wait to see how you deny this one.

Oh no, they gave an example of a thing. Well, those were real titles of Apollo, from IRL. So, let me try this:

• Aphrodite Paphian is a version of Aphrodite emphasizing her birth from the Sea and connection to the primal elements. Sounds like a Tempest Domain to me.
• Aphrodite Eleemon is her merciful aspect, well, that would tie nicely into the Life Domain
• Aphrodite en kopois is Aphrodite of the Gardens, showing her dominion over plant life, so that's the Nature Domain, right?
• Aphrodite Tymborychos is Aphrodite the Gravedigger, could call that the Grave domain perhaps?
• Aphrodite Androphonos is Aphrodite the Killer of Men, and she is well documented as a War Goddess in Sparta and Laconia
• Venus Genetrix was Aphrodite as the Mother of the Roman Nation, that sounds like you could make her an Order Domain

Man, I'm going to have to stop. There are just so many of these. She was an incredibly famous goddess after all. But, this was all pulled from Googling the real Aphrodite. If your theory holds true, then she should have domains in DnD including: Tempest, War, Order, Grave/Death, Life, Nature, and I'll even through in Peace since it was originally Love.

What does she actually get? Light. Which, in a twisted way you can see, because Light is associated with the sun, and the sun is hot so light also gets fire, and fire is passion so you can string it along to connect to what Aphrodite is ACTUALLY about. And this is something they at least did consistently. Every deity associated with love and beauty gets light and/or life... except Life is certainly the more common one.

So, yeah, if we take an equivalent example, the majority of Deities should have far, far more domains. Especially if they were ACTUALLY meant to be sects and demonstrate different ways people worshiped the gods. But they don't, because they weren't. Set is famously the Protector of the Sun, he was worshiped in that manner. There is no mention of that aspect of his worship in his domains. Moradin is a war god as the cheif of the Dwarves, same with Corellon. The domains are at best a simplified list of starting points. They aren't neccessary to make sects, because they don't correspond in anyway to the sects that we can see in and out of the game. Domains are cleric subclasses. That's it. They are associated with the old idea of Portfolios, but that's because Portfolios... were specializations for Clerics as well. A portfolio in 3.5 was a collection of Domains, that the cleric could then choose to get extra spells and extra powers. Even clerics without a deity picked two domains.

That's all they have ever been. Powers for clerics. They are associated with the deity loosely, because you don't want a deity of Night to be associated with the Sun, but they were never needed for RP. The RP could exist separate, without caring about the Domains, because the Domains are the mechanical crunch.

 

[Maxperson]

If there is only one domain, and these are inextricably linked to the worship of different sects and not, you know, Cleric Subclasses like they really are... then yeah. How can all these gods and goddesses with single domains work the way you are INSISTING it works.

The real answer is, they don't. The domains are cleric subclasses. The rest of it is RP that is not directly tied to picking a Domain.

The real answer I already gave to you with the Tempus example. There is no need for all RP of a given Porfolio(domain) to be the same.

Sure, they could. And so an acolyte deciding how to worship Tempus doesn't pick a domain for their character.

By picking a sect he is automatically picking a domain and vice versa.

Oh no, they gave an example of a thing. Well, those were real titles of Apollo, from IRL. So, let me try this:

Oh no. They blow your argument out of the water and now I bet you're going to go through some mental gymnastics to explain how their outright statement that sect = domain doesn't really mean that sect = domain.

• Aphrodite Paphian is a version of Aphrodite emphasizing her birth from the Sea and connection to the primal elements. Sounds like a Tempest Domain to me.
• Aphrodite Eleemon is her merciful aspect, well, that would tie nicely into the Life Domain
• Aphrodite en kopois is Aphrodite of the Gardens, showing her dominion over plant life, so that's the Nature Domain, right?
• Aphrodite Tymborychos is Aphrodite the Gravedigger, could call that the Grave domain perhaps?
• Aphrodite Androphonos is Aphrodite the Killer of Men, and she is well documented as a War Goddess in Sparta and Laconia
• Venus Genetrix was Aphrodite as the Mother of the Roman Nation, that sounds like you could make her an Order Domain

Man, I'm going to have to stop. There are just so many of these. She was an incredibly famous goddess after all. But, this was all pulled from Googling the real Aphrodite. If your theory holds true, then she should have domains in DnD including: Tempest, War, Order, Grave/Death, Life, Nature, and I'll even through in Peace since it was originally Love.

What does she actually get? Light. Which, in a twisted way you can see, because Light is associated with the sun, and the sun is hot so light also gets fire, and fire is passion so you can string it along to connect to what Aphrodite is ACTUALLY about. And this is something they at least did consistently. Every deity associated with love and beauty gets light and/or life... except Life is certainly the more common one.

So, yeah, if we take an equivalent example, the majority of Deities should have far, far more domains. Especially if they were ACTUALLY meant to be sects and demonstrate different ways people worshiped the gods. But they don't, because they weren't. Set is famously the Protector of the Sun, he was worshiped in that manner. There is no mention of that aspect of his worship in his domains. Moradin is a war god as the cheif of the Dwarves, same with Corellon. The domains are at best a simplified list of starting points. They aren't neccessary to make sects, because they don't correspond in anyway to the sects that we can see in and out of the game. Domains are cleric subclasses. That's it. They are associated with the old idea of Portfolios, but that's because Portfolios... were specializations for Clerics as well. A portfolio in 3.5 was a collection of Domains, that the cleric could then choose to get extra spells and extra powers. Even clerics without a deity picked two domains.

Yep. Those were some gold metal gymnastics there, to which I counter with...

"Your choice might correspond to a particular sect dedicated to your deity. Apollo, for example, could be worshiped in one region as Phoebus ("radiant") Apollo, emphasizing his influence over the Light domain, and in a different place as Apollo Acesius ("healing"), emphasizing his association with the Life domain."

You can't win this.

 

[Voadam]

I agree with Chaosmancer here. The context of the domains being in the cleric section as functional subclass power they pic k, the acolyte background saying they need to pick gods but not mentioning domains at all, and this quote showing up in the appendix on gods I feel the natural way to take the quote is that acolytes and clerics need to pick gods from the list or the DM's selection and clerics need to consider their god's associated domains.

I do not feel the natural reading of the PH is that acolyte background rule requirements are hidden in reading a complex sentence in an appendix in a certain way.

"If you're playing a cleric or a character with the Acolyte background, decide which god your deity serves or served, and consider the deity's suggested domains when selecting your character's domain."

Since non-cleric acolytes do not otherwise select their character's domain I do not feel this establishes a 5e requirement for them to do so.