D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
Really? Because we can't seem to get passed "But the DM may veto your cleric" as the answer to EVERY QUESTION. And in trying to find reasons for people to keep bringing it up... it seems to be just because.
Because that's not the case. The DM isn't vetoing your cleric. Your cleric is against the rules. You need to persuade the DM to allow Vecna to be a nature god.
So, if you have reasons beyond "because" then like I said, let's move past the DM vetoing everything and discuss the other aspects of this.
The rules go against you, so now you just want to "move past" the rules so you can be right?
First of all, you have your own argument backwards, again. Since Portfolios are just collections of domains, you would be saying that since he doesn't have the nature domain he can't have nature in his portfolio.
I'm not going against anything. We know his porfolio. It's Knowledge. I would personally as DM add Trickery, since he in prior editions was also intrigue. That's it. In order to for a cleric of Vecna to have the nature domain, Vecna would have to be a nature god. Cleric RAW only lets you pick from Vecna's domains/portfolio.
You can't even get my own example right... I've never once said he was a nature god. Still a god of secrets, this entire time. I also feel like you aren't in a position to decide what a "normal" DM is.
I'm not trying to state your argument. I'm telling you flat out that unless the DM makes Vecna a nature god, per RAW that domain isn't available to Vecna clerics.
You mean like Mystra? A goddess who isn't a human goddess, as she existed before humans were created but isn't listed as a goddess of any particular race? A goddess who is famous for being neutral in all things, and so CAN'T be a racial deity as that would disrupt the balance.
Mystra is a human goddess. She was the Human Midnight. Before that she was a human peasant girl from Netheril.
I feel like I've presented these facts before. And your response was... since they aren't a non-human deity, they must be a human deity. Which controverts the very existence of Mystra, Chauntea, Shar and Selune and their roles in the creation of Abier-Toril.
Assuming that A) the legends are true, and B) that they weren't human gods at the start. Look at the images of all of those. They are all.............................human.
The cleric picks the domain.
Dude. Read the cleric section in the PHB. Literally nothing in the religion section of the DMG is for the players. It's all for the DM.
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Sure, you can laugh as soon as you explain how being beaten in a jail cell by a sheriff is "impossible". To my knowledge all it would take is... a sheriff, to physically strike someone... in a jail cell.

I'm sorry for blowing your mind though. I didn't realize how powerful this level of imagination was.



How is "I was beaten by corrupt police" imposing on your story if it takes place in a city you haven't made? Do you... think that corrupt police are impossible?

I mean, this is exactly the type of thing I'm talking about. My story better be "expletive good" because I'm imposing on you by saying I was roughed up by law enforcement in a city? What, did everyone suddenly decide they were all part of the city guard and therefore they don't want me to play a character who had a bad run in with the law? Would I be imposing on your story if I said my character had a loving mother? Where does this even begin, let alone end?



Why do you have to control things to the level that everyone was born in the same village? How am I the problem by wanting to tell a story, while you are the reasonable one by not allowing me any freedom to do anything?

Or, can I be born somewhere that isn't where my character ends up years later when they are looking for a party? Like, you know people traveled, right? Even before the invention of the car, people could walk from town to town. So just because I wasn't born in "Generic Village #2" doesn't mean that's not where I am at the start of the game.



Are you kidding me?

Here's a good logical story. I left home and traveled (insert direction here) and ended up in this place. This is called "traveling" it is a thing I expected to do as an adventurer. I'm sure it will revolutionize the world alongside my new invention "breathing"



Acolyte, PHB 127 "Perhaps you were the leader of a small cult outside of any established temple structure, or even an occult group that served a fiendish master that you now deny."

So, yes, it is in the PHB, that's why I said "it's in the PHB".

Also, why is my contract for my character A) Not going to be to my liking and B) always going to end tragically. Let me guess, you are the DM and you refuse to allow players to have any other outcome. You likely make the contracts terrible and then force it to end poorly for the player, no matter what, and dress it all up in a "well, they are devils, what did you expect" coating.


I really hope you can start to see why I find this all incredibly controlling. You have determined my character's hometown, birth, background, and you can't even let me write my own backstory. You have an entire world to play with, why do you have to control the PCs too?




So because you've had a player playing with you for 40 years, all the cults and religions for your world have been spelled out and there is zero room for something new., Because I was asking how we had "allowed" religions and it seems that what is "allowed" is what you have done before and nothing else. Only reason I can think of that you want to make continuity with 40 years of play part of your answer.



I assumed it because I was talking about religions, and you answered with how many gods there are.

But yeah, I'm getting the picture. Nothing new under the sun. Your game world has been measured and laid out and the only thing a player can do is follow in the paths you have laid out.



How do I know if I'm interested in it if I don't read it? Am I supposed to see the future and just learn about them through osmosis?



Could have fooled me. So far you've said I can't have a character who traveled anywhere, was faced with a hardship as bog standard as being beaten by law enforcement, and told me that if I want to play a fiend warlock that you'll be making sure I suffer a tragic end. I can't really "surprise" you when I'm locked down so tight that I can't make any creative decisions.

Also, it doesn't escape my notice that the Dragonborn Kingdom you are talking about is the same one you said you voted AGAINST, because you didn't like the idea.



Again, I'm not going off of your record, I'm going off of what you've said. And at every turn and every idea you have declared how you as the DM are going to shape it to match what you want.

Beaten by a sheriff in another town? Impossible for a level 1 character.
Being from somewhere else? Only if I have an excellent story that woos you with its logic and power
Want to be a fiend Warlock? No you don't
Want to be part of a cult or a monk order? Here is the pre-approved list of everything you are allowed to know, determined over 40 years of gaming you had no say in.





Because you keep forcing 40 years of your game onto me and demanding that I follow your rules and your expectations, when we don't even live in the same country, let alone play the same games. You seem to have no space for anyone's version of the game but your own.



Have you actually responded to any of those previous ideas with anything other than vague dismissal? Nope. So, how else should I see this?



If that is true, I mourn for the state of players in DnD. Being able to make your own character is the most basic thing a player should be allowed to do.
1) How did you escape? How did you survived? You know that jail in these times (medieval) was not the same as jail in ours. Very rarely would a prisonner survive. They would not care to give sustenance to the person unless that, from that person they could muster some ransom for. If not, you were not beaten up, but simply hanged, publicly in a matter of a day or two. The concept of jail as we know it, is relatively recent. A corrupted sheriff has more power in those times that it has in ours.

2) The reformed cultist is a Kobold Press background. A passing note for suggestion does not make something a rule. It makes it a suggestion. And that suggestion is quite clear and has no bearing on the Acolyte background. So your reformed cultist is not a background per say and thus has absolutely no bearing on the Acolyte background. Do you now see why I was asking?

3) As for the warlock contract. Not all ends bad. Just pick a patron that do not want your soul and consequently life, but something else. There is a cost for power and if you do not want to pay that cost, tough luck on you. Take something else as a class. The warlock of the old one or of the fey work quite well without soul taking. You know that fiends make soul contract to get your soul don't you?

4) This is very fortunate that you do not play with such a "controling" DM like me that lacks so much imagination. So many kind words from you good sir. What you see as limiting, I see as guiding players. Ho and do not forget that I have players that seems quite happy with that.

5) for the rest
There are a few ways to build characters. What most people fail to understand is that outlandish unbelievable background is fine in some circle but not in others. I have had hundreds of background stories over the years, some more ludicrous from one to another only to see that character die in the first session. I once had someone that escaped jail from a corrupted guard captain. Ho the fight and all the things that first level character did. You can not even begin to fathom. So I said ok, let's enact that scenario, and since the gods were with you, I give you 3 15+ on your rolls. Guess what? Even with this, the character never escaped and simply died in the morning.

I do not expect you to understand fully how character creation works in my games but here I go.

Background, not the basic ones we have in the PHB, will arise from the story we build together. Not from what you imagine your first level character did previously. I do not know how long you have been playing or which style of D&D you play. What I can tell you is that players do not spend a lot of time on character backstory in my games. Why? Because the death rate is about 5 to 6 characters per campaign, usually in the first 6 or 8 levels, including first. With such a death ratio, no one wants to spend more than the necessary amount of time to create a character. TPK is quite common but players voted on very harsh and hard resting rules. The one time I tried to voted for the normal rest rules in the PHB, I was unanimously voted out!

With that said, character creation is relatively fast. We discuss the where and why's. The type of campaign they wish (litterally got hundreds of adventures I can choose from. Adapting old stuff is relatively easy in 5ed, almost from the get go) and then we proceed to character picking/creation/party composition. Players discuss who should do what and then they make a quick character and the train is ready to go. I almost need no prep as I use the time they take planning their party to take what seems to be the closest to what they wish, or will simply take a low level one shot and use it as a staging ground for a bigger campaign. If this is something fully new that do not relate to something I already have, I will fall into composition/creation mode and be about two or three games ahead of the player at most. Improvisation will be a strong thing in some campaigns and relatively low on others. It all depends on the players.

As for the Dragonborn Kingdom in Greyhawk.
Yes I did voted "no" on the perticuliar Dragonborn Kingdom in Greyhawk as it was presented here. The dragonborn in my Greyhawk are not a numerous lot. They are refugees from another dimension (prime) and they numbered a few thousand. They survived only because a small dwarven enclave in the Abbor Alz did not slay them at first sight. Dragonborn paladins of Bahamut (a new god in Greyhawk) saved miners from a band gnolls. It is not a sprawling kingdom with hundred of thousands of Dragonborn. They were/are still refugee from another dimension and they need the help of Nyrond, Urnst and even Greyhawk to simply survive day to day. There is a big difference between a full fledge kingdom as it was presented and the rag tag people that are in my Greyhawk. They are new commers to Greyhawk. And guess what? It came from a player that knew that Dragonborn were not allowed but wanted to play one. The story he wrote took a bit more than a paragraph but he sold me on it. I am such a harsh restrictive DM...

As for my 40 years of playing.
Been there, done that. At some point, cynicism with grand theories in gaming sets in. Been there done that is more than a simple statement. I do not stiffle players creativity, I simply give some guiding limits. If I were the bad DM that you envision me, I would not have kept any players at all.
 
Last edited:

Faolyn

(she/her)
Butting in here...

1) How did you escape? How did you survived? You know that jail in these times (medieval) was not the same as jail in ours. Very rarely would a prisonner survive. They would not care to give sustenance to the person unless that, from that person they could muster some ransom for. If not, you were not beaten up, but simply hanged, publicly in a matter of a day or two. The concept of jail as we know it, is relatively recent. A corrupted sheriff has more power in those times that it has in ours.
Despite being a medieval fantasy game, most DMs and players don't require actual medieval conditions. A large number of DMs would be fine with having a more modern style of prison, rather than a medieval one. Because let's face it: actual medieval conditions are often just too unfun to play in.

Secondly, there are plenty of ways that a person can escape. They (or a friend) could have bribed a guard. The guard could have been a friend. Friends could have staged a jailbreak. If the PC was small, had a high Dex, or was playing a rogue, they could use that as a justification for slipping out between the bars or even stealing the keys from the guard who conveniently fell asleep right by the doors. A stray fireball could have taken out the side of the prison, perhaps cast during a convenient raid by monsters, and the PC escaped in the confusion.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
Because that's not the case. The DM isn't vetoing your cleric. Your cleric is against the rules. You need to persuade the DM to allow Vecna to be a nature god.

I also need to persuade them to do a war cleric of Moradin, or a Light Cleric of Hestia, or a cleric of Tymora, or criminal. Every single thing I post you and Helldritch say I need DM permission for. At some point, it stops being about the rules, and starts being about control. After all, I need to discuss with the DM if gods exist, if clerics exist, if I'm allowed to play one, which gods I'm allowed to worship, it is beyond suffocating at this point.

The rules go against you, so now you just want to "move past" the rules so you can be right?

I thought this was about the DM, because the rules are only a tool of the DM, now it is back to being about rules. And I don't think the rules say what you think they do.

But yes, since I will acknowledge that you believe I need to speak to the DM about any and all parts of my character creation and get their approval, because controlling the entire world isn't enough, then I would like to move on to if they have any reason to do so. You want that reason to be "Da Rulez!" but I think we've already established (and of course you disagree because nothing I post is ever enough to get considered) that the listings in the PHB are not exhaustive, and so even if we agree on what the rules say (and we don't, because I don't believe the rules intend to be locked in stone) then there would still need to be a reason. And you don't have one.

I'm not going against anything. We know his porfolio. It's Knowledge. I would personally as DM add Trickery, since he in prior editions was also intrigue. That's it. In order to for a cleric of Vecna to have the nature domain, Vecna would have to be a nature god. Cleric RAW only lets you pick from Vecna's domains/portfolio.

I'm not trying to state your argument. I'm telling you flat out that unless the DM makes Vecna a nature god, per RAW that domain isn't available to Vecna clerics.

And we can show that, RAW, this position isn't actually all that supported. After all, why does the God of Poetry have the Light Domain? If you can be a god of poetry and control fire and light, then why can't you be a god of secrets and control beasts and gain druidic magic?

Mystra is a human goddess. She was the Human Midnight. Before that she was a human peasant girl from Netheril.

Mystra was the reincarnation of Mystryl who was born of Shar and Selune. She was not a human goddess. The fact that a human was transformed into Mystra doesn't make her a human goddess in the way you are claiming. Her worship extends far FAR beyond humans.


Assuming that A) the legends are true, and B) that they weren't human gods at the start. Look at the images of all of those. They are all.............................human.

They couldn't be human gods from the start, humans didn't EXIST. And how should we assume the authors of the Realms who are telling us "this is what happened" are WRONG.

And seriously? Artwork? That proves literally nothing since the gods can appear however they please.

Dude. Read the cleric section in the PHB. Literally nothing in the religion section of the DMG is for the players. It's all for the DM.

DnD does not assume secret knowledge of the rules.
 

Butting in here...


Despite being a medieval fantasy game, most DMs and players don't require actual medieval conditions. A large number of DMs would be fine with having a more modern style of prison, rather than a medieval one. Because let's face it: actual medieval conditions are often just too unfun to play in.

Secondly, there are plenty of ways that a person can escape. They (or a friend) could have bribed a guard. The guard could have been a friend. Friends could have staged a jailbreak. If the PC was small, had a high Dex, or was playing a rogue, they could use that as a justification for slipping out between the bars or even stealing the keys from the guard who conveniently fell asleep right by the doors. A stray fireball could have taken out the side of the prison, perhaps cast during a convenient raid by monsters, and the PC escaped in the confusion.
Good points. But for a first level character?
Too often have I seen stuff being done in backgrounds of first level characters that even 9th level one would have difficulties to pull off.

Also, what a lack of imagination. Don't you think that in a world with magic, most "civilized" kingdom would not have some protection vs magic in or on their jail? In a world with such small characters such as halflings, gnomes and even fairies there would be jails made with them in mind? Just think of the amount of classes in 5ed that can use magic, no way any lord or lady would not have contingencies for that.

Also, what would he the point of playing medieval fantasy or even Renaissance fantasy and using modern world point of view? Where would the immersion and escapism. Most fantasy novels where heroes are in jail imply that the hero must escape before his or her execution or that the ransom is paid. Executions were still public events at the beginning of last century. Our modern sensibilities make us forget that not so long ago, public hanging were relative common place. I for one, am truly happy that here in Canada we have gotten rid of the death penalty. But that is not so in the game we play. There are harsh realities that many forget but I play with them. If there are nothing to gain from you either in a public execution or in the form of ransom, you can ber that a corrupt official will simply kill you in the spot. Remove your tongue so that speak with dead will not be used on you and claim he had no choice but to kill you. And guess what? He will get away with it because, like judge Dread, he is the law! The first level character found out that he was corrupted? Why leave a live witness?

My games are hard and often lethal, especially in the first few levels. I play monsters as close to what is their supposed intelligence as possible. Players rarely have an undeserved break and guess what? If a fight is suspiciously too easy, they will ask me if I played optimally or not. I roll everything in the open and still my players wants to be sure that I do no go easy mode on them.

Before a game, I roll 20 times a 20 sided die for secret rolls and note each one in order and note what they are used for if I use some. At the end of a session, I show them the roll that were used and exactly what they were used for. I hide nothing. When the players succeed they know they earned it in earnest.

It may not be a style for everyone, but this is the style my players and I prefer. BUT

In our Friday Night Dungeon, we do not play grim realism and full medieval mentality. We embrace the heroic fantasy and with full stylish characters (almost caricatural) as it is to introduce people to the hobby. No gritty, villains are caricatural and make some stupid mistakes. The fights are still highly lethal but the tone is quite lighter. We answer quite a lot of questions and the most common one is how do we determine the winner. Explaining that in the game, there is no winner or loser but that the goal is to build stories can be a challenge. But with time, we became quite good at explaining this. I hope that COVID ends soon so that FND starts again.
 

Chaosmancer

Legend
1) How did you escape? How did you survived? You know that jail in these times (medieval) was not the same as jail in ours. Very rarely would a prisonner survive. They would not care to give sustenance to the person unless that, from that person they could muster some ransom for. If not, you were not beaten up, but simply hanged, publicly in a matter of a day or two. The concept of jail as we know it, is relatively recent. A corrupted sheriff has more power in those times that it has in ours.

Who said I was in jail? I said I was beaten by the sheriff.

Who determined that we were using a setting where prisoners were left to starve to death? Who determined that the legal system isn't more like our own?

Or, in summary, you said it was impossible not because of some group I am theoritically a part of, but because you decided on a bunch of rules and assumptions that didn't actually exist until you said they did and used them to declare my incredibly simply idea was impossible.

2) The reformed cultist is a Kobold Press background. A passing note for suggestion does not make something a rule. It makes it a suggestion. And that suggestion is quite clear and has no bearing on the Acolyte background. So your reformed cultist is not a background per say and thus has absolutely no bearing on the Acolyte background. Do you now see why I was asking?

No, I don't. By this reading you are somehow stating that even though the Acolyte offers an option to have been formerly part of a fiendish cult, you don't see that as part of the rules of Acolyte. It has the same weight as working in an established temple.

Also, it seems that because some other company made a named background that this somehow matters? I don't know why Kobold Press would matter at all.

3) As for the warlock contract. Not all ends bad. Just pick a patron that do not want your soul and consequently life, but something else. There is a cost for power and if you do not want to pay that cost, tough luck on you. Take something else as a class. The warlock of the old one or of the fey work quite well without soul taking. You know that fiends make soul contract to get your soul don't you?

Again, I don't believe that the character has your name on it. The rules say absolutely nothing about a Fiend Warlock having sold their soul being a requirement. Actually, rereading it, they don't mention souls AT ALL. So, you have decided as the DM to impose your will on the player's character.

Again, is controlling the entire world and 99.99% of the population of that world not enough for you? You absolutely must control my character's backstory as well, demanding that I conform to your preconceived notions of how these things must work.

4) This is very fortunate that you do not play with such a "controling" DM like me that lacks so much imagination. So many kind words from you good sir. What you see as limiting, I see as guiding players. Ho and do not forget that I have players that seems quite happy with that.

Guiding the players to conform to exactly what you want. You assume and make up new rules to constantly tell me how I am wrong and going against the "group's will" when there is no group here.

5) for the rest
There are a few ways to build characters. What most people fail to understand is that outlandish unbelievable background is fine in some circle but not in others. I have had hundreds of background stories over the years, some more ludicrous from one to another only to see that character die in the first session. I once had someone that escaped jail from a corrupted guard captain. Ho the fight and all the things that first level character did. You can not even begin to fathom. So I said ok, let's enact that scenario, and since the gods were with you, I give you 3 15+ on your rolls. Guess what? Even with this, the character never escaped and simply died in the morning.

Escaping jail is outlandish and unbelievable? Wow. I can't even think of how ridiculous that is.

I do not expect you to understand fully how character creation works in my games but here I go.

Background, not the basic ones we have in the PHB, will arise from the story we build together. Not from what you imagine your first level character did previously. I do not know how long you have been playing or which style of D&D you play. What I can tell you is that players do not spend a lot of time on character backstory in my games. Why? Because the death rate is about 5 to 6 characters per campaign, usually in the first 6 or 8 levels, including first. With such a death ratio, no one wants to spend more than the necessary amount of time to create a character. TPK is quite common but players voted on very harsh and hard resting rules. The one time I tried to voted for the normal rest rules in the PHB, I was unanimously voted out!

So, you prevent people from writing backgrounds at all. Unsurprising. If people could write a background that includes things like a family and where they grew up, you wouldn't be able to control them.

Oh, I'm sure you'll tell some sob story about how some player said they were a dragon slayer blessed by all the gods with invincible armor and some other BS. But the current result is that I can't even say "I was beaten by the sheriff" without you coming down and telling me how impossible and unrealistic that is.

As for the Dragonborn Kingdom in Greyhawk.
Yes I did voted "no" on the perticuliar Dragonborn Kingdom in Greyhawk as it was presented here. The dragonborn in my Greyhawk are not a numerous lot. They are refugees from another dimension (prime) and they numbered a few thousand. They survived only because a small dwarven enclave in the Abbor Alz did not slay them at first sight. Dragonborn paladins of Bahamut (a new god in Greyhawk) saved miners from a band gnolls. It is not a sprawling kingdom with hundred of thousands of Dragonborn. They were/are still refugee from another dimension and they need the help of Nyrond, Urnst and even Greyhawk to simply survive day to day. There is a big difference between a full fledge kingdom as it was presented and the rag tag people that are in my Greyhawk. They are new commers to Greyhawk. And guess what? It came from a player that knew that Dragonborn were not allowed but wanted to play one. The story he wrote took a bit more than a paragraph but he sold me on it. I am such a harsh restrictive DM...

You've tried to tell me it was impossible to have a character who was beat up by a sheriff, because you made assumptions and forced those assumptions on me.

You have actually just stated that you basically forbid people from writing backgrounds at all.

As for my 40 years of playing.
Been there, done that. At some point, cynicism with grand theories in gaming sets in. Been there done that is more than a simple statement. I do not stiffle players creativity, I simply give some guiding limits. If I were the bad DM that you envision me, I would not have kept any players at all.

And yet, every time you post you reinforce how little control you allow players to actually have.
 

Faolyn

(she/her)
Good points. But for a first level character?
Too often have I seen stuff being done in backgrounds of first level characters that even 9th level one would have difficulties to pull off.
Sure. Obviously not if the PC was trying to escape a super-max, heavily guarded, magical prison. But a PC that managed to escape a small jail, especially if there was luck involved? Why not?

From a purely mechanical point of view, a 1st-level PC should be able to sneak past or even injure/kill a typical CR 1/8, 11 hp, AC 16 NPC guard with only a small amount of trouble (and especially if they're playing something like a stealthy rogue with sneak attack).

Also, what a lack of imagination. Don't you think that in a world with magic, most "civilized" kingdom would not have some protection vs magic in or on their jail? In a world with such small characters such as halflings, gnomes and even fairies there would be jails made with them in mind? Just think of the amount of classes in 5ed that can use magic, no way any lord or lady would not have contingencies for that.
Wow, random insult time.

Sure, I think that it's possible a kingdom might not have the magic involved. For starters, depending on the setting, magic may not be common; it might even be vanishingly rare. PCs are often loaded with magic, because they go kill monsters and people and take their stuff. But how much magic do NPCs have? Does each jail have one or more wizards on staff? Are they built with magical materials? Antimagic field is an 8th-level spell that lasts for an hour. Even if it had an option for casting each day for a period of time to make it permanent option--which it doesn't--you'd still need at least a 15th-level cleric or wizard to cast the spell. That's going to be prohibitively expensive to hire even once. Maybe you could justify prisons like that in your world, but every prison? Even small-town jails? Really?

Would there be a single jail cell for all criminals, or would there be a Medium-sized cell and a Small-sized cell? And if so, why couldn't a Medium person escape from a Medium cell? If Small races are barely known in the area, or are known but aren't really trouble-makers or who have their own areas (and thus their own law enforcement), who would waste time and money creating a Small jail in a human town?

Are faeries common in the area? Are they bound by human laws, or if you try to put one in jail, would a more powerful fey noble come and turn you into a mouse for your audacity?

Also, what would he the point of playing medieval fantasy or even Renaissance fantasy and using modern world point of view? Where would the immersion and escapism.
Right, because I, a woman, want to escape into a world where I'm considered property of my husband and wouldn't be allowed to travel, let alone learn how to use a sword or cast (heretical) spells. Riiight...

You can also rephrase the above to include "man who is of a different ethnicity than the local norm," "non-heterosexual," and "any person who doesn't want to be an illiterate serf who dies of the plague."

So now who's lacking an imagination? You seem to be assuming that in an incredibly fantastic world that shares absolutely no history with the real world, has magic, non-humans, and demonstrably real gods, the inhabitants will have the exact same point of view as they did in the real world.

Most fantasy novels where heroes are in jail imply that the hero must escape before his or her execution or that the ransom is paid. Executions were still public events at the beginning of last century. Our modern sensibilities make us forget that not so long ago, public hanging were relative common place. I for one, am truly happy that here in Canada we have gotten rid of the death penalty. But that is not so in the game we play. There are harsh realities that many forget but I play with them.
"That many forget." Or, that people may have deliberately chosen not to include because reality often sucks, or that people have decided "hey, this is society is actually mostly Lawful Good, so they aren't going to have such horrible prisons, and any horrible, corrupt sheriffs will be removed from office by Lawful Good superiors." I don't want to get into real-world politics, but I think we can all agree that in the medieval and renaissance periods there weren't any societies that were D&D-style Lawful Good.

(No, a Lawful Good society doesn't mean all inhabitants are LG. But it does mean that there's enough LG inhabitants that evil, corrupt people wouldn't be able to get away with evil acts for long.)

(And no, many people don't use alignment. I don't. But many people do.)

If there are nothing to gain from you either in a public execution or in the form of ransom, you can ber that a corrupt official will simply kill you in the spot. Remove your tongue so that speak with dead will not be used on you and claim he had no choice but to kill you. And guess what? He will get away with it because, like judge Dread, he is the law! The first level character found out that he was corrupted? Why leave a live witness?
At least until you rise as an undead and get your revenge...

(Also, speak with dead requires a mouth; it doesn't say anything about a tongue.)

My games are hard and often lethal, especially in the first few levels. I play monsters as close to what is their supposed intelligence as possible. Players rarely have an undeserved break and guess what? If a fight is suspiciously too easy, they will ask me if I played optimally or not. I roll everything in the open and still my players wants to be sure that I do no go easy mode on them.

Before a game, I roll 20 times a 20 sided die for secret rolls and note each one in order and note what they are used for if I use some. At the end of a session, I show them the roll that were used and exactly what they were used for. I hide nothing. When the players succeed they know they earned it in earnest.
What sort of secret rolls? For things you should be rolling in the game, like attack rolls, Perception checks, and saves? Because if so, you're sounding like you cheat (by picking a pre-rolled number) to make sure that combats go the way you want them to instead of sometimes going awry because the enemy rolled badly. If this is actually the case, I'm pretty sure that everyone in my group would be ready to kick you out. If you're not rolling for attacks, skills, and saves, then what are these secret rolls?

But you know what? My combats are almost always really hard as well. I generally balance for "difficult" or "deadly" encounters, often several in a row (since I see no point in spending time stating up easy encounters that are over in a less than a round), and no, the PCs don't usually rest between each of them. But I don't cheat, and sometimes the enemies roll badly and screw up. Just yesterday, one of the warlocks enemies abound'ed one monster and it attacked one of the other monsters (I rolled randomly to determine the target; fortunately, there were exactly ten participants in the battle, making it easy). Because these monsters weren't allies to each other (they were undead who rose at the same place but beyond that had no loyalty to each other), I decided to give the second monster a Wis check to see how it would react. I rolled a 1 for it, and decided that it would attack the first monster. It only did a point or two of damage, but it used up the second monster's turn, thus giving the PCs a very necessary brief break from taking more damage.
 

Maxperson

Morkus from Orkus
I also need to persuade them to do a war cleric of Moradin, or a Light Cleric of Hestia, or a cleric of Tymora, or criminal. Every single thing I post you and Helldritch say I need DM permission for. At some point, it stops being about the rules, and starts being about control. After all, I need to discuss with the DM if gods exist, if clerics exist, if I'm allowed to play one, which gods I'm allowed to worship, it is beyond suffocating at this point.
Perhaps, but this is not anywhere near the point where it stops being about the rules and becomes about control. This is about player entitlement. You feel entitled to violate the rules and do whatever you want.
And I don't think the rules say what you think they do.
When you can quote even a single thing from the PHB that says you can pick any domain you want, I'll listen. So far you haven't.
but I think we've already established (and of course you disagree because nothing I post is ever enough to get considered) that the listings in the PHB are not exhaustive, and so even if we agree on what the rules say (and we don't, because I don't believe the rules intend to be locked in stone) then there would still need to be a reason. And you don't have one.
The DMG is clear that the DM decided the domains.


And we can show that, RAW, this position isn't actually all that supported. After all, why does the God of Poetry have the Light Domain?
That one is easy. It's because there's no poetry or song domain and they had to give her something. This is the result of 5e deficiency in making a lot of domains. Light is the closest domain to music. My father had one of the largest light shows in the late '60s and early '70s and did shows at the Filmore West. Go to a concert and lights are everywhere. It's not perfect, but it's what they had to work with.
Mystra was the reincarnation of Mystryl who was born of Shar and Selune. She was not a human goddess. The fact that a human was transformed into Mystra doesn't make her a human goddess in the way you are claiming. Her worship extends far FAR beyond humans.
You are assuming that humans weren't made in the form of the original gods and/or that worship doesn't affect the gods when we know that it does.
They couldn't be human gods from the start, humans didn't EXIST. And how should we assume the authors of the Realms who are telling us "this is what happened" are WRONG.
Sure they could. Humans made in the image of the pre-existing human gods, or gods that became human through the overwhelming majority human worship.
And seriously? Artwork? That proves literally nothing since the gods can appear however they please.
Oooookay. Artwork that 100% in all editions shows them as human proves nothing, but a tenuous similarity between the planer races proves that they are all "planetouched." :rolleyes:
DnD does not assume secret knowledge of the rules.
Cool story, but secret knowledge of the rules isn't anything I said or claimed. The rules there are for the DM's USE only. Not player use. Feel free to learn them. You don't get to enact them without DM permission.
 

Who said I was in jail? I said I was beaten by the sheriff
I. Because you asked what I would do. This means you invited yourself to my game. I graciously allowed it to see where it would go.

Who determined that we were using a setting where prisoners were left to starve to death? Who determined that the legal system isn't more like our own?
Me. Again. As you invited yourself.

Or, in summary, you said it was impossible not because of some group I am theoritically a part of, but because you decided on a bunch of rules and assumptions that didn't actually exist until you said they did and used them to declare my incredibly simply idea was impossible.
Even without you being in my game. There isn't much a low level character can do. And with a paragraph or two for a background...

No, I don't. By this reading you are somehow stating that even though the Acolyte offers an option to have been formerly part of a fiendish cult, you don't see that as part of the rules of Acolyte. It has the same weight as working in an established temple.
Ho... and your own assumptions about domains are ok? Even if they're against the rules. Ok thank you for that clarification.

Also, it seems that because some other company made a named background that this somehow matters? I don't know why Kobold Press would matter at all.
Me neither. That is why I was confused. That background exist though. If you want to play catch 22, warn me that you are using a "suggestion" in the Acolyte section. Strange that a rule on domain can be ignored by you but a "suggestion" with big "may be" can not be ignored by us.

Again, I don't believe that the character has your name on it. The rules say absolutely nothing about a Fiend Warlock having sold their soul being a requirement. Actually, rereading it, they don't mention souls AT ALL. So, you have decided as the DM to impose your will on the player's character.
You make a pact with a fiend. Go to fiend, they make pacts to get souls. Come on man. You know it as good as I. You even argued for that explicit thing so that they can be gods! Now all of a sudden, they're no longer interested in souls???? Make up your mind my friend.

And no I did not imposed my will on player's character. You are trying to impose your view on our game. When you join a table, you must abide by the table. AND my table is very democratic. You may call it the tyranny of the majority if you will. But democracy rules. Especially at session zero where the players and I votes on which rules will be applied. You keep ignoring this fact. Are you so open with your players? Or is it just a pretense?

Again, is controlling the entire world and 99.99% of the population of that world not enough for you? You absolutely must control my character's backstory as well, demanding that I conform to your preconceived notions of how these things must work.
Nope, I ask you to conform to the parameters of the PHB. You are in no obligation to write a full back ground story. In fact, all you need is to choose or roll under acolyte (if that is the background you wish) on the little tables under Acolyte and here you go. Details will add up as the character progress in the campaign.


Guiding the players to conform to exactly what you want. You assume and make up new rules to constantly tell me how I am wrong and going against the "group's will" when there is no group here.
Well, you invited yourself to my game with your questions. And yes, the tyranny of the majority applies to my games.

Escaping jail is outlandish and unbelievable? Wow. I can't even think of how ridiculous that is.
For a first level? Of course it is. For a 4th level thief/monk or any character with lock picking? Much more believable. But as of 1st level. Nope.

So, you prevent people from writing backgrounds at all. Unsurprising. If people could write a background that includes things like a family and where they grew up, you wouldn't be able to control them.
A paragraph or two at most. Which include family, some acquaintance and a few other things related to class and race if necessary. 1st level character might not survive past 2nd or 3rd level so why write pages of essay on something that might not even see the glimmer of light of play?

Oh, I'm sure you'll tell some sob story about how some player said they were a dragon slayer blessed by all the gods with invincible armor and some other BS. But the current result is that I can't even say "I was beaten by the sheriff" without you coming down and telling me how impossible and unrealistic that is.
Again, been there done that. Even you have heard these stories and probably laughed at it. And if you knew how "constables" were truly administering justice, you would simply not do these stories.

You've tried to tell me it was impossible to have a character who was beat up by a sheriff, because you made assumptions and forced those assumptions on me.
Again, you asked me how it would work. So I obliged you.

You have actually just stated that you basically forbid people from writing backgrounds at all.
No, I just limit them to basic things. And again, players are quite happy with that.

And yet, every time you post you reinforce how little control you allow players to actually have.
They have all the freedom they want within the parameters that were set by them upon voting. Who am I to contest their will? They do not want to lose hours on character creation (which, again, might not even survive past 3rd level). Story and background will arise from interaction from the world as we keep background opened. It is not a fixed thing as background will evolve over time as the character will grow, so will their background.
 

Voadam

Legend
The DMG is clear that the DM decided the domains.
Ish. :)

Overall I think it goes towards default DM decides deities and the associated domains from gods that are available with which deities.

But there are parts like DMG page 10 "In rules terms, clerics choose domains, not deities."

Without the stuff about gods having portfolios the implication of suggested domains for gods like the DMG sample Dawn War Pantheon on page 10 and PH appendix B would be that a cleric picks a domain for his character from the list of cleric domains and the deity entry includes some suggestions for the cleric of thematically appropriate ones for specific gods.

Overall it does seem to be saying these are suggestions for the DM to create a portfolio for specific gods, but it is not as clear as it could be. And it could easily have been set up the other way as a default and make the limits of god offerings the exception rather than the rule.
 

Remove ads

Top