D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[pemerton]

"Iuz, god of pain and oppression CE Death" He must have had a really major religious awakening in the expansion for Greyhawk that was never released.

In AD&D materials (both editions) Iuz is always flagged as a demigod. Given that he's the sun of a Demon Prince and a mortal witch, I've always taken that to imply that Graz'zt is a god.

EDIT:
From the GH boxed set campaign book, pp 27, 71:

Iuz, old Iuz of fearbabe talk, may be human - or may once have been human, but this is not known for certain one way or another. . . .

For many decades . . . Iuz had been trapped by the mirthful and mad Zagyg, locked away in a strange chamber deep below the ruins of Greyhawk Castle, one of nine powerful demi-gods so confined. These prisoners were loosed in 570 CY . . .

Whether Iuz is a human who ha become demon-like through the centuries, or whether he is a semi-demon, a cambion (as some suggest a by-blow of Orcus), no mortal knows. He is, however, the first known godling of chaotic evil . . . Few creatures beyond the boundaries of [his] domain will speak his name, let alone adore him. . . .

Iuz is rumored to have a soul object secreted on the Abyssal Plane dominated by the demoness Zuggtoy (sic), with whom he is known to consort. He is thus free to roam outside his domain without fear of permanent harm.​

So there is no assumption here that being a (semi-)demon and being a (demi-)god or godling are mutually exclusive.

From the From the Ashes Atlas of the Flanaess, pp 28-29, 94:

Iuz himself is believed to have been born a cambion, a cross between a great tanar'ri lord and a femal human necromancer, Iggwilv. . . .

When Iuz was locked beneath Castle Greyhawk, his homeland was able to wait for its master . . . When Iuz was freed in 570 CY, he had great plans for the Flanaess. Risen to the power of a demi-god, Iuz has achieved more than a few of his initial goals. . . .

Iuz can be slain while on the Prime Material plane. If this happens, he is banished to the Abyss where he has a hidden soul gem . . . his palace holds a permanent gate to the Abyss.​

The 2nd ed version seems to suggest, in away the 1st ed version doesn't, that Iuz's status as a god is different from his demonic heritage. Though it does not have the sort of definitive tone some in this thread have used.

 

[pemerton]

Two other thoughts, in response to @Chaosmancer and @Faolyn:

* The fact that Yeenoghu is a Demon Prince doesn't preclude him being a god. Nothing says that a Demon Prince can't be a god; and in fact Lolth is described, in the FF and DDG, as both a Demon Queen and a lesser god. DDG even elaborates: "
The dark elves worship demon lords from the Abyss. The best known example is the worship of the Demon Queen Lolth."

* The fact that a god or gods send a cataclysmic event (like in Dragonlance/Krynn) clearly doesn't preclude them being good, on any traditional measure. In the Silmarillion the Valar, who are undoubtedly understood as good - angelic - by JRRT, send a cataclysm against Numenor. Many people believe that our world has had cataclysms inflicted upon it by an omnibenevolent God. In all these cases, the cataclysms are understood to be a form of just punishment for human wrongdoing. Now maybe you don't agree with the theories of divine punishment that underlie these ideas, but they're hardly idiosyncratic to the authors of Dragonlance.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

In AD&D materials (both editions) Iuz is always flagged as a demigod. Given that he's the sun of a Demon Prince and a mortal witch, I've always taken that to imply that Graz'zt is a god.

I don’t think that the way that D&D has used the word demigod historically relates to the heredity of the deity (half-human/half-mortal), as much as it does to their relative power. A quick glance through the 1E DDg reveals that Chao Kung Ming and a number of divinities in the Chinese Mythos section are classified as demigods; as well as Kartikkeya (from the Indian Mythos section); Fileet, Haaashastaak and Meerclar (from Melnibonean Mythos); Vaprak and Laogzed (Nonhuman deities section) etc. etc.

Figures whom we might strictly consider demigods (the offspring of mortals and gods, like Achilles, Perseus or Gilgamesh) generally seem to be classified as Heroes in the 1E DDg schema; Heracles is an exception -- he is a demigod -- but Heracles was actually worshipped as a god, so it might be a nod to that.

Edit: In the case of Iuz, I always had the sense of some kind of divine ascension (Abyssal descent?) being the source of his divinity, although I'm sure being a cambion gave him a considerable native advantage. His divinity is not - it seems to me - predicated on his demonic nature.

 

[Maxperson]

I'm not assuming, I'm being sarcastic. You've basically boiled down any discussion of FR on this matter into "Because AO says" which is rather boring and pointless.

Facts are pointless now?

You know what a suped up hyena is? A Dire Hyena. Yeenoghu is clearly more powerful than that, so I haven't really been paying attention to your blatant dismissal.

Also, he can't be a Demigod. Demigod's can't hear prayers or grant cleric spells, and Yeenoghu can do both.

Then a suped up dire hyena

Demigods have been able to grant spells since 1e when they came into existence, until 4e(maybe) and 5e. 5e apparently changes demigods, so maybe they promoted Yeenhoghu. Or maybe his clerics just get their spells from faith and not him.

But it does have something to do with being a god, and those are all gods. Gods who are worshiped and therefore are gods. Iuz isn't nice, but he is worshiped. So, why are those gods actually gods, despite being just as terrible as Iuz, who you say isn't a god, because he is so terrible that he isn't worshiped "properly"

He's not worshipped by very many, though. Being forced into churches and to go through the motions does not equate to worship. He can cause capitulation, but not worship. And being raised in a tyrannical environment doesn't alter that.

So, I didn't think I'd have to be the one to tell you this Max, but a Demigod is not a god. That's why they are called DEMIgods. Because they are not gods. If they were gods, they'd be called gods.

So in D&D they are gods dude. They are by RAW(in all editions that have them) the lowest rank of god.

And to your second point, you are trying to tell me that they just literally didn't care and mislabeled him for the lulz?

No. I'm telling you what I'm telling you. I said to stop putting words into my mouth. No label for any god of any power is not "mislabeling" any of them. The PHB lists all gods from demigods up to greater just as gods. It doesn't care about power level.

Because that is a mislabeling then, and a rather blatant one.

The word you are looking for is Strawman, not mislabeling. And yes, yes what you said is a blatant Strawman.

 

[Sepulchrave II]

So, I didn't think I'd have to be the one to tell you this Max, but a Demigod is not a god. That's why they are called DEMIgods. Because they are not gods. If they were gods, they'd be called gods.

See my post, above.

In D&D, demigods are very much gods - albeit ones of the lowest rank. If you read the flavour text of just about every entry of entities who are classified as demigod in the 1E DDg, it includes "[so-and-so] is the god of [such-and-such]."

 

[Voadam]

Also, he can't be a Demigod. Demigod's can't hear prayers or grant cleric spells, and Yeenoghu can do both.

So, I didn't think I'd have to be the one to tell you this Max, but a Demigod is not a god. That's why they are called DEMIgods. Because they are not gods. If they were gods, they'd be called gods.

Where in D&D are they not considered gods or able to grant spells? Every reference I have seen is them granting cleric spells.

In AD&D they were generally not able to grant the highest level cleric spells, but they were still granting cleric spells.

 

[Faolyn]

On the cosmic level, perhaps: you end up with a bench-clearing brawl among the deities*.

On the day-to-day level of a typical campaign, however? Really not so much.

Oh sure. From a gaming perspective, this will only matter should a cleric of Pistil approach the PCs because he feels there's something fishy going on; can he approach. Or if a PC is a cleric of Pistil and the DM lets them suddenly realize there's discrepancies between older holy books and newer ones.

(Or if everyone is playing a god and is playing out that bench-clearing brawl!)

 

[Faolyn]

Two other thoughts, in response to @Chaosmancer and @Faolyn:

* The fact that Yeenoghu is a Demon Prince doesn't preclude him being a god. Nothing says that a Demon Prince can't be a god; and in fact Lolth is described, in the FF and DDG, as both a Demon Queen and a lesser god. DDG even elaborates: "
The dark elves worship demon lords from the Abyss. The best known example is the worship of the Demon Queen Lolth."

I agree with this. Since I consider Archfiend and God to be separate things, I think it's possible to be both. I've used the term "multiclassing" as a jokey way to describe it.

* The fact that a god or gods send a cataclysmic event (like in Dragonlance/Krynn) clearly doesn't preclude them being good, on any traditional measure. In the Silmarillion the Valar, who are undoubtedly understood as good - angelic - by JRRT, send a cataclysm against Numenor. Many people believe that our world has had cataclysms inflicted upon it by an omnibenevolent God. In all these cases, the cataclysms are understood to be a form of just punishment for human wrongdoing. Now maybe you don't agree with the theories of divine punishment that underlie these ideas, but they're hardly idiosyncratic to the authors of Dragonlance.

And I disagree with this, but for reasons that are not appropriate for this forum because it delves into actual religions and religious beliefs. But suffice it to say that if you actually have a cosmic Good and Evil, not just as personality tendencies but as true sides to a universal conflict (in the way that Law and Chaos used to be), then I think that genocide is definitely not Good. It might be Neutral, depending on the circumstances, but not Good.

 

[Voadam]

In AD&D materials (both editions) Iuz is always flagged as a demigod. Given that he's the sun of a Demon Prince and a mortal witch, I've always taken that to imply that Graz'zt is a god.

Given that the other famous Greyhawk demigod is Zagyg who notably was a mortal who ascended to demigod status, and given the mystery about Iuz's origins I take it as ambiguous as to how Iuz achieved demigod status. Being a mortal or cambion with such parentage is a good base from which to gather power to ascend to demigod status.

 

[Mustrum_Ridcully]

Why do I care that people are saying "No, you are wrong, this is the truth"? Well, because I don't think I'm wrong. Is it so strange that I'm responding to people who have a different perspective by trying to convince them of my side? Isn't that the point of discussing? I don't believe in just making a statement then abandoning the field. I defend my ideas.

In my experience, when you have a thread going on over many pages with only few participants and the two most active ones have opposing views and quote each other paragraph by sentence, if not sentence by sentence, you are far past the point you're convincing the people that already have an opinion.

Your only goal now is to state your opinion very clearly, with good internal logic and then hope that undecided people can use this to form their opinion, but otherwise leave it be.

I found this discussion quite interesting on the first few pages, but it digressed quickly into the pointless quote-by-paragraph style.

If I ever go down to invent a new setting, I'll think more carefully about whehter I even want evil gods or have the evil opposition be Archfiends and demons and the like. And if I decide I want gods and archfiends, I'll define a meaningful distinction between what being a God means and what being a Fiend is, and whether there is a power level difference. Maybe God and Fiends are basically just classes (or races?) of supernatural being that have some different rules, but can achieve similar power. The important thing would be to have meaningful differences, like, say whether an Archfiend of Murder and a God of Murder make a difference.