D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[pukunui]

Why would overlapping ever be a problem? It has never been a problem, unless you make it so.

Sure, I'm making it a problem for me. D&D can feel a bit bloated sometimes with the sheer amount of everything (all the different planes of existence, all the different monsters, and so on and so forth).

I think one of the reasons I like the Dragon Age setting so much is because of its simplicity.

You've got the natural world and the spiritual world, which is referred to as the Fade. It probably corresponds most closely to D&D's Ethereal Plane, but it is home to both good and evil spirits. The good spirits are all embodiments of virtues and concepts like justice, while the evil spirits are all representations of the standard sins like pride, rage, lust, etc. The Fade is interesting because it's where the minds of all living beings (except dwarves, strangely) go when they dream. It also appears to be the gateway to heaven. There's not really a hell, as such, but there is the equivalent of the Underdark, where goblinoid type creatures live. There are also creatures referred to as "archdemons" that manifest as massive dragons. There's more to it than that obviously, but I feel it really distills things down and makes it all a lot easier to remember. There aren't a million different types of fiend all from slightly different underworlds. All of the supernatural elements of the setting come from one place. (It makes me think of the Aang/Korra Avatar setting, which also has a natural world and a spirit world.)

And before anyone says it, yes, I own the three Dragon Age TTRPG box sets that Green Ronin put out some years ago. I just haven't ever had the chance to play/run it, as it's hard to find players willing to try something that isn't specifically D&D in this part of the world, so I've been making do by trying to incorporate ideas from Dragon Age into my D&D worlds.

 

[Lyxen]

We don't have stats for her as an angel, so we don't really know what she was before becoming an archdevil. That said, she's not identified as "Zariel, Angel Prince of Mt Celestia" or anything like that. She's just "Zariel, an angel". Sometimes a "mighty angel", sometimes just "an angel". I would not put her angelic form on even footing with Orcus or Levistus.

And again, "Generations later, the gnolls returned to Idyllglen, this time with demons in their ranks and Yeenoghu himself leading the war band. Zariel and the Hellriders came to the Idyllglen’s aid, but not before the town was mostly destroyed."

So she is clearly the counterpart to Yeenoghu, a Demon Prince, both in personal might but also in leadership.

So maybe not Orcus, who was also a god at some point in time, but certainly a cut above deva/planetar/solar, and on par with named powers of the lower planes who rule their own plane.

He stole his divinity during the 4e upheavals (at least in FR). He's certainly a bit of an exception to the rule, as it were.

4e mythology and history are as far as possible from the usual D&D elements, and the FR is only one of the settings, but it's still the standard setting for 5e, in which he is a god.

 

[DEFCON 1]

If we look at Theros, almost all their gods have their good and bad points, and the people who pray to them can have good and bad motivations for doing so. Heliod is the self-proclaimed "leader" of the pantheon, and his portfolio is the sun, light, bravery, and self-sacrifice-- and the book has listed him as "lawful good". However, the book also says he is a prideful and arrogant dick who thinks he should lead, if only the other gods would get on board... and he has gotten into fights with some of the other gods who won't submit to his rule. Lawful Good? Not really to me. Likewise... Pharika is the God of Affliction, and her physical manifestation is that of a medusa. The book lists her as Neutral Evil, because her portfolio includes poison, murder, disease and the like. But at the same time, she is also the patron of all healers in Theros, and for every plant that can be used to create a poison, there is another one that can create a salve or antidote and she is good with all of them. She is also the most scientifically connected god, which allows for innovation and discovery. So why does the book say she is Neutral Evil? Because assassins pray to her to help them kill people, and so boom... D&D tropes say she has to be evil-- despite half of her portfolio being all about "good" stuff?

And this is true of almost every single god in Theros-- they all have their good points and their bad points. The only god that is written as out-and-out evil is Mogis, the god of slaughter, violence, and war... who just happens to be the one whose physical form is a minotaur, the main "evil" humanoid race in the setting. So once again... the "monsters" get pegged as default evil because reasons, and this god is given no redeeming qualities. And for those minotaurs in Theros who aren't default "evil"? They either do not worship Mogis, or have to twist their logic into a pretzel in order to have Mogis as their patron despite them being "good people" even though their god is the most evil S-O-B of the setting. I find it all terribly stupid, and making little to no sense.

So for my upcoming Theros game, I basically re-organized the portfolios of all the Theros gods... giving each and every one of them traits that would be considered good, and traits that would be considered bad. For Mogis... I basically changed him from intense emotion to commit violence to intense emotion in general. He is now the God of Zeal-- passion, love, comradeship, as well as bloodlust, violence and fury. Intense love can lead to intense hate... the violence of war can produce a strength and bond between fellow soldiers... lust can be for both blood and physical passion. People will pray and submit themselves to all of it, and Mogis is now the embodiment for all of it. And it makes Mogis more likely to have actually devoted servants and people praising his name.

 

[Umbran]

That got me thinking: what is the purpose / role of evil gods in D&D? Why do we have gods of (un)death, murder, strife, disease, tyranny, slaughter, etc? Especially when you consider that D&D also has demons, devils and other foul entities that embody and promote all of those things. Why the overlap?

Why do we have goblins, orcs, hobgoblins? Why 5+ varieties of giants? Why ten and more types of dragons?

So the GM can pick among several kinds of antagonists that are fundamentally similar, but have differences that lead to different positoning and flavor.

 

[Voadam]

The celestial counterparts of arch-devils and demon princes are most developed in the 3.5 Book of Exalted Deeds.

Celestial Hebdomad (Ruling council of the Seven Heavens - Archangel Equivalents):
Barachiel the Messenger
Domiel the Mercybringer
Erathaol the Seer
Pistis Sophia the Ascetic
Raziel the Crusader
Sealtiel the Defender
Zaphkiel the Watcher

Talisid and the Five Companions (Guardinals of Elysium):
Talisid the Celstial Lion
Sathia the Sky Duchess
Manath the Horned Duke
Vhara Duchess of the Fields
Kharash the Stalker
Bharrai the Great Bear

The Court of Stars (Eladrins of Arborea):
Morwel Queen of Stars
Faerinaal The Queen's Consort
Gwyharf The Whirling Fury

Other Non-Evil counterparts exist as well for Law and Chaos.

Monster Manual II
Modrons:
Primus The One and the Prime

Fiend Folio
Slaad:
Ssendam - Lord of the Insane
Ygorl - Lord of Entropy

The Demons and Devils are just the most prominent.

 

[Voadam]

4e had its own cosmologies and angels were much different from how they are portrayed in other editions of D&D. They were manifestations of the Astral Sea and served the gods who lived there regardless of alignment. They even looked different with their lower halves trailing off into divine mist. Even the gods did not truly understand them. They were generally contrasted with the elemental archons from the Elemental Chaos. Demons were corrupted elementals, and devils were corrupted angels.

 

[Voadam]

You might be interested in seeing this discussion as well: Are evil gods necessary.

 

[Voadam]

Also having gods be only about salvation and goodness is one way to go, but it contrasts a lot with real world polytheistic pantheons.

Check out the Greek Goddess Eris and her progeny.

And hateful Eris bore painful Ponos ("Hardship"), Lethe ("Forgetfulness") and Limos ("Starvation") and the tearful Algea ("Pains"), Hysminai ("Battles"), Makhai ("Wars"), Phonoi ("Murders"), and Androktasiai ("Manslaughters"); Neikea ("Quarrels"), Pseudea ("Lies"), Logoi ("Stories"), Amphillogiai ("Disputes") Dysnomia ("Anarchy") and Ate ("Ruin"), near one another, and Horkos ("Oath"), who most afflicts men on earth, Then willing swears a false oath.

 

[MarkB]

Exactly. If you look at various editions, there are tons of hierarchies of Archons, for example, not mentioning Devas and the Planetars and Solars. And if you look at Planescape (best setting ever IMHO), you have descriptions that start with "Mount Celestia is largely the domains of the Archons", which is the exact counterpart of the Devils in Hell.

After that, in addition to the creatures who are the embodiment of the qualities of a plane, you have which deity have their domains where, and whether these deities need worship or not, so many potential combinations

As I love Planescape, the variety of the races, deities, planes, interactions, I like to keep everything, but you are of course absolutely to have a more streamlined cosmology if you wish it.

The difference, though, is that the archons, devas, etc. are within the hierarchy of their respective deities.

Demons and devils are not in the heirarchies of evil deities, and those deities don't reside with the fiends in the Hells or the Abyss.

Instead, they're completely separate franchises.

 

[Voadam]

The difference, though, is that the archons, devas, etc. are within the hierarchy of their respective deities.

Demons and devils are not in the heirarchies of evil deities, and those deities don't reside with the fiends in the Hells or the Abyss.

Instead, they're completely separate franchises.

Demons and Devils have been in the hierarchies of deities and celestials and such have been independent of deities at various points and in different sources throughout D&D.