D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[SkidAce]

So D&D has had sort of two traditions about fiend lord type beings.

1 They are flat out deities, they have clerics.

2 They are explicitly not deities, they do not grant spells to clerics.

With a bit of overlap where only some are deities and some are not.

If you go with them as deities then the original question of why have Erythnul the god of Strife in Greyhawk when you have demon lords becomes why have deities of the demon group alongside deities of the devil group alongside evil gods of the Oeridian pantheon in Greyhawk alongside evil gods of the Suel pantheon in Greyhawk, alongside the Orc pantheon, etc. all in the Greyhawk cosmology.

The desire seems to be to have a world cosmology with multiple different possibly overlapping groupings of evil deities. This is a bit tautological but just wanting a multiple pantheon world similar to how for Conan's Hyperborean world the evil Stygian god Set is not a part of the pantheons of the northern Cimmerians or Picts who have different evil gods and there might be demons and Cthlhulhu mythos beings in Hyperborea as well separate or connected to the gods.

Well if you look at the pantheons as part of the D&D toolkit to build your world, it gets easier to narrate. Leave out the ones you dont want in any given campaign.

 

[SkidAce]

Perhaps instead of being a duality, the difference between gods and arch-things is more of a continuum. The more god-like you are, the more power you gain from worship and the more you can create and control, and the more arch-thing you are, the less dependent you are on mortals (going with the idea that gods die without worship but arch-things don't) and the more you can interact with the Material World without damaging or altering it. There's benefits to both sides.

I really like the way you explained this example.

 

[AbdulAlhazred]

Well, I think 'God' is just term used to describe a power level of beings in AD&D. This is pretty clearly spelled out in Deities and Demigods, where all the various Demon Lords and Princes, as well as the Arch Fiends and Dukes of Hell are listed as being at least Lesser Gods.

You simply have a hierarchy of existence, there are mortals, then there are lesser non-mortal beings (IE some monsters, many outer-planar beings below 'name' rank). Then you have your demigod rank beings, which are things like maybe some of the weaker demon lords and diabolic leaders. Many of them aren't even really described one way or the other in these terms, the lesser gods including major demon lords and such, and then the 'true' greater deities, which are in game terms virtually indestructible.

2e kind of tossed in a few added distinctions, heroes and 'intermediate gods', whatever that means. They don't actually seem to mean much, and 2e is even more vague on what gods are or do, but there's clearly a hierarchy of existence.

Honestly, I think that's all there is to gods in D&D anyway, they're just some excuses to make adventures, nothing more or less. Evil ones just serve as very high powered bad guys, or sort of as an 'evil cheering squad'.

 

[Voadam]

In T1-4 The 1e Temple of Elemental Evil the Demoness Zuggtmoy has clerics.

Page 28-29: "When the demoness Zuggtmoy initially conceived the plan to establish her own rule on a portion of the Flanaess, she decided to use as many "tools" as possible, just as did her competitor (Lolth). Consulting some of her clerical servants, Zuggtmoy decided that Elemental Evil would have more appeal than a cult dedicated to her beloved fungi. Recruiting was not difficult, and soon the rudiments of the Temple of Elemental Evil were flourishing."

 

[pemerton]

Thanks @Voadam.

I had a look at Iuz the Evil (2nd ed WoG). It has priests of Iuz up to 18th level, but has an express note that those priests can't have spells of 7th level, but can get their full complement of 6th level spells while on the Prime. I infer that the significance of being on the Prime is that this is Iuz's home plane, and so he can grant spells above 5th level.

 

[Minigiant]

There's another point of overlap between demons and gods: Iuz, the son of a mortal and a demon prince, is a demi-god!

(I'll check my Carl Sargent era material later today to see if the clerics of Iuz have spells above 5th level.)

Didn't Iuz use blood sacrifices to ascend to godhood?

 

[pemerton]

Didn't Iuz use blood sacrifices to ascend to godhood?

I don't think this is mentioned in the WoG boxed set or GH Adventures - because I think I'd remember if it was - but I can double check and post again.

 

[Helldritch]

Didn't Iuz use blood sacrifices to ascend to godhood?

It is in the wiki

Iuz - Greyhawk Wiki

ghwiki.greyparticle.com

I did not find it in Iuz the Evil, GH box set, Return to Castle Greyhawk or the Gazeteer... It might be in some other book (or I read too fast and missed the reference). But I have a strong feeling that this is taken from the Living Greyhawk or the Oerth Journal article...

 

[Chaosmancer]

Why?

With a recent exception noted below, every setting is homebrew or was at some point; only some managed to get the stamp of officialdom on them somewhere along the line.

Forgotten Realms? Ed Greenwood's homebrew.
Greyhawk? Gary Gygax's homebrew.
Mystara? started out as Blackmoor (Dave Arneson's homebrew) then got morphed and expanded a few times.
Eberron? Keith Baker's homebrew.
etc.

Perhaps the only published settings that have never been homebrew at any point are the recent M:tG-based ones, which are (I think) corporate-designed all the way.

Because "core" DnD is inextricably linked with the settings. If you go forth with the idea that every setting is homebrew, then there is no Core DnD, because everything you would reference as "core" is tied to a setting.

 

[Chaosmancer]

That you disagree or not is of no consequences. All optional rules are homebrew. Whether or not a DM applies them is a table's choice. Thus it is homebrewing as no two DM will have the exact same optional rules from every books printed so far. I do not use TCoE yet, I did translate and put the variant artificer that was added in there for my campaign. So the combination of official options IS homebrewing.

A position that no one has ever seriously taken before, because "homebrewing" is the act of creating your own rules. Optional Rules are not rules you have created yourself. But sure, every feat is homebrew (because all feats are optional) all magic items are homebrew (because all magic items are optional), Rolling dice to create your stats is homebrew (because it is an optional rule) ect, ect ect. We'll just destroy everyone's understanding of what official rules are so we can state that Demon Lords aren't gods, because it is clearly that important.

Again, that you disagree has no bearing of wether it is or not. Again in some setting Orcus does not even exist! In the above quote from the Demonomicon of Iggwilv in the 4ed. Orcus was formerly a primordial that was corrupted into demonic form... we are far from a mortal as mortals did not existed yet... So you were right for Orcus in the Realms. But wrong on so many other realm. That is why I usually go for Core or General books that are supposed to be applied to all settings (unless said setting say otherwise)

And many of those core books are written on the assumptions of settings, so all of them would be homebrew too. Like i said, it is an extreme position that I don't think is worth taking.

Wrong again. 1ed Orcus has been killed by countless groups and even individuals. Even gods were killed. Raistlin, comes to mind. He had succeeded. And what about Cyric? He killed a god too and he was a mortal.

Then build me an official 5e level 20 Bard, with no homebrew options, that can kill 5e Orcus in a straight up fight in his lair. Since I'm wrong you should be able to do so easily, correct?

Also, Raistlin and Cyric had absurd amounts of plot armor, because they were novel characters, so I don't really think they should count for how the game play loop works.

Also, if individuals can kill gods.... then Demon Lords are still not weaker than gods, the point I keep making, which is one of the major points that people keep saying is the reason we need Evil Gods, because they are more powerful.

Agreed. But what purpose are left for the clerics if everyone can heal? This is where I am starting to wonder the "relevance" of the cleric class. If evil gods can be so easily discarded, why not discard all gods...

Because religion is still an interesting story. Cleric's have been more than healing robots for a long time, and I don't see the fact that other people can heal as something that ruins the purpose for their existence.