D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Maxperson]

The quote doesn't say anything about Greyhawk gods at all. It refers to the "deities of the D&D pantheon". Which is my point: I don't see how a sideways reference to Greyhawk in a work in which there is no express reference to the World of Greyhawk is carrying an authority for you (or anyone else) that you do not accord to the actual Greyhawk texts. It's very strange, and as I said above not defensible as an approach to textual interpretation.

Perhaps you weren't aware that Greyhawk was the default setting for 3e, so the deities of the D&D pantheon are the Greyhawk gods. You can see this on page 32 of the PHB which lists the D&D pantheon gods and on pages 106-108 which talks about them in detail.

 

[pemerton]

Perhaps you weren't aware that Greyhawk was the default setting for 3e, so the deities of the D&D pantheon are the Greyhawk gods. You can see this on page 32 of the PHB which lists the D&D pantheon gods and on pages 106-108 which talks about them in detail.

I am aware of this, although you seem to have the wrong pages. It is on p 31 (in brief) and then on pp 90 to 92 (in full detail) that the list of gods is found. But the word Greyhawk is not found. Nor is it found on pp 159-60 of the DMG. Which is my point: Tthese 3E rulebooks and supplement are not sources of information about Greyhawk. They are derivative of the prior work that actually sets out the relevant information about GH and its gods - including Boccob, and Lendor, and others - from which one can infer that their power does not depend exclusively or even primarily on their numbers of worshippers.

(Perhaps you are citing the 3.5 PHB? I don't have a copy of that volume. But it was published after the 3E DDG - I believe in 2003.)

 

[Campbell]

The default setting of 3e pulled in elements from Greyhawk, but it is not Greyhawk. It makes substantial changes to just about everything it uses.

 

[pemerton]

The default setting of 3e pulled in elements from Greyhawk, but it is not Greyhawk. It makes substantial changes to just about everything it uses.

Right. This is like 4e using Bane as a god. It is obviously inspired by FR. But puts it to a different use.

 

[Maxperson]

I am aware of this, although you seem to have the wrong pages. It is on p 31 (in brief) and then on pp 90 to 92 (in full detail) that the list of gods is found. But the word Greyhawk is not found. Nor is it found on pp 159-60 of the DMG. Which is my point: Tthese 3E rulebooks and supplement are not sources of information about Greyhawk. They are derivative of the prior work that actually sets out the relevant information about GH and its gods - including Boccob, and Lendor, and others - from which one can infer that their power does not depend exclusively or even primarily on their numbers of worshippers.

(Perhaps you are citing the 3.5 PHB? I don't have a copy of that volume. But it was published after the 3E DDG - I believe in 2003.)

So it's just coincidence that the gods all mirror Greyhawk exactly and the living campaign for organized play was set in Greyhawk?

 

[pemerton]

So it's just coincidence that the gods all mirror Greyhawk exactly and the living campaign for organized play was set in Greyhawk?

Obviously not coincidence. As I posted, the 3E books are derived from Greyhawk. They are not more authoritative than the actual GH texts; whatever authority they have is dependent on how accurate they are as derivations.

That's why I don't treat the 3E DDG as telling me something new. Like me, its author worked out that you can't explain a god like Boccob if you insist that divine power and status depend on worship. And you work that out by reading the actual GH materials.

 

[Voadam]

The default setting of 3e pulled in elements from Greyhawk, but it is not Greyhawk. It makes substantial changes to just about everything it uses.

My understanding was that 3e's default setting was full on 3e era Greyhawk but the books only explicitly presented elements of it until you get the actual campaign supplements like the Gazetteer and the Living Greyhawk Gazetteer. The commentary on the product pages seems to support this view.

The timeline has advanced with Vecna going from a demigod in late WotC 2e era Greyhawk to a more powerful god after Die Vecna Die! where he failed to take over the whole D&D universe. What substantial changes do you see to just about everything the default 3e setting uses? Heironeous going from favored weapon axe to longsword does not seem that big.

 

[Alzrius]

What substantial changes do you see to just about everything the default 3e setting uses? Heironeous going from favored weapon axe to longsword does not seem that big.

You say that, but that detail is one of the things behind the Who the Hell is Erik Mona? incident.

 

[Voadam]

Right. This is like 4e using Bane as a god. It is obviously inspired by FR. But puts it to a different use.

4e was explicitly creating a new setting and cosmology using some reconceived individual elements from Greyhawk and Forgotten Realms and was not Greyhawk or FR. 3e's default setting in contrast seemed to be actual Greyhawk in the 3e era.

I saw individual people using 3e PH default stuff as non-Greyhawk generic 3e world setting, but WotC seems to have conceived of the default and used it as actual Greyhawk.

Some of those prior online lists of Greyhawk gods for instance have the tons of expansions of gods from 3e and 3.5 sourcebooks. Altua for instance is from the 3.5 Complete Warrior.

 

[Maxperson]

Obviously not coincidence. As I posted, the 3E books are derived from Greyhawk. They are not more authoritative than the actual GH texts; whatever authority they have is dependent on how accurate they are as derivations.

That's why I don't treat the 3E DDG as telling me something new. Like me, its author worked out that you can't explain a god like Boccob if you insist that divine power and status depend on worship. And you work that out by reading the actual GH materials.

They aren't derived from Greyhawk. They ARE Greyhawk. Greyhawk is the default setting, which is why it was used for the Living Greyhawk games.