D&D General The Role and Purpose of Evil Gods

[Helldritch]

So very different from what my group does, which always involves fairly complete character backgrounds and motivations, even if they're sometimes written in bullet rather than paragraph format. We don't have many low-level deaths, but then again, our group is as likely to try negotiations or stealth instead of straight-up combat. These backgrounds are pretty important to us.

So maybe there's the disconnect. Backgrounds aren't as important in your games, since characters can die at any moment, so the idea that someone could have a jailbreak in their story is anathema to you. Backgrounds are important at my table, so as long as the jailbreak was logically done (i.e., not from a very well-guarded or highly magical prison), then it's great because there are instant plot hooks for that character.

Thank you. You're finaly see how we see things.

D&D is not ancient times. It's a completely different entity, that by default doesn't function like any real-world system. It's why, in 5e, "Folk Hero" is a background but "Serf" isn't. And despite the books occasionally bringing up concepts like the barter system, it's a setting that runs on cash money.

And? Even in today's time, barter works. Might be a fringed practice but it does work and it is still used. A great way to avoid taxes. Facebook is full of adds about people selling or trading on alternate media.

Spellcasters are not farmers, laborers, or merchants. They have literal magic. Some may choose to pay their taxes in services. But I think most would not--assuming they even pay deign taxes in the first place.

Ever heard about nationalism? Service to the state? Wizard accademies working for the "country" to get leeways for their research and endeavors? What about churches? Not everything is about money. In fact, the monetary aspect is usually reserved to players as it is a quick short cut and avoids a lot of hagglins. That line of thought do not lessened my point. In fact, it only strengthen it. It also explains why humanoids do not have such luxuries.

Have you considered trying to get your players to not be murderhoboes? NPCs can be great fun. For one of the games I'm in, where I'm playing part-owner of a bar (kalashtar psi knight), the DM and I spent like an hour going over the other two owners and the regular patrons, coming up with more and more ideas--none of which were "exceptional" in an adventuring sense, but all of which made my background more interesting.

With such a high mortality rate, do you really think that my players do not the utmost possible as to not solve every encounters with a fight? This is very insulting for them.

So, you're ignoring someone who is actually studying anthropology because of an article you read. See, mansplaining is like...

No. I am not. I am listening to someone who is studying anthropology. That is my daughter and her teachers. I was thinking a lot like you, but new theories are going the way I told you.

Many, not most. Some had strict gender roles. This has nothing to do with sexism in D&D, or with removing sexism from a fantasy game traditionally set in a world that is vaguely European (not North American) and sorta medieval/renaissance in technology and already comes pre-filled with anachronisms. This also has nothing to do with the fact that it's perfectly fine to play D&D with a modern mindset.

And it is perfectly fine not to play it with a modern mindset. Or to play it with a mix of mindsets.

 

[Helldritch]

Really doesn't change anything about how uncommon a level 5 spellcaster would be is 80% of 1st level characters end up dead



Do you know who Wizard Academies and Court Wizards serve? Royal Courts and wealthy nobles. Not the local Sheriff of Mudbank. And, why would the royal court care about the village drunk tank enough to put an instant death spell on lock? Maybe, maybe the small village of Mudbank has a 5th level priest who works out of the local church, but if that's true then just in terms of scale, most towns would have much higher level preists, and the actual ranks of non-spell casting clergy would be low.

You also seem to be somewhat confused. Yes, paying your taxes in currency is new, because currency that is consistent like what is presented in DnD is rather new. But that does nothing to address the actual value of the taxes, like I laid out. Whether it is coin or services or the produce farmed by the wizard's serfs (because to even be taxed in the medieval times by the Kingdom, you had to be a landowner) the wizard's taxes would have to be massive to cover the cost of all these spells. Large enough to make this wizard one of the wealthier nobles in the kingdom.



I would love to see a rule that says poorly made stone walls are immune to different damage types. I'd also like you to read the spell.

See, the explosive part can only be done for Acid, Cold, Fire, Lightning, or Thunder (all of which would damage stone) and all of these are Dexterity saving throws. They don't get an option for Con.

Which means to get radiant or necrotic or force, you would need to use the Spell Glyph. Interestingly, the spell glyph requires a second casting. Meaning the price of the glyph would increase. Looking at the Wizard list, none of the spells I can find that would deal necrotic or radiant would be viable. You could do a magic missile though, so let's assume that. No save after all, and you'd probably cast it at at least 2nd level. That's likely another 50 gold, bringing our price to 550 per jail cell (I'm rounding a little bit, but it really won't matter)

If I assume that there are about 30 jail cells in the entire region, which is an insu ltingly low number, but hey everyone is executed next day, then that is between 15,000 and 16,500gp IN TAXES. Remember, the tax rate was around 10%, this means that the wizard's yearly income is between 150,000 and a 165,000 gp.

It was noted to be exceptional for a noble to sustain "20 knight's fees" which a knight fee is one or two manors and about 20 or so people. They would also have to buy the horses and armor and arms, which it should be noted were generally ancestral, because it was expensive.

Using DnD numbers, let's take 30% of this wizard's value and devote it to knight's fees. (10% is king, 10% is church, and 50% can be left for other things). That is a pool of 45,000 gp.

Maintence for a noble estate is 10gp. Platemail, shield, longsword, pike, and shortsword for equipment is 1540. Warhorse is 400, with chain barding being 200gp more.

So, this sets a DnD Knight's Fee at about 2150. If they rebuy all the armor and weapons and horses every single year. Something that was NEVER done.

That gets us 21 Knight's fees... for the 150,000 gp wizard.

Edit: Minor mistake on my part since it is late. I forgot that 30% pool for the second number. Corrected math below.

For the 165,000 gp wizard 23 Knight's fees.

And this isn't even straining the Wizard's resources, it is a mere 30% of their capital, and it covers spending more than is reasonable every single year. And the end result is that your "totally real medieval logic" ends up with this single wizard who is enchanting jail cells to kill petty thieves and street urchins, being equal to the richest and most powerful nobles of the medieval period. All so you can justify preventing a backstory of escaping from the local village jail.

Wow... lots of numbers, all wrong unfortunately.
1) Prices for in the PHB are for players only. This is to avoid a barter fest with each transaction. I can see why you assume that between NPCs it would be so. But it was not generaly the case.
2) Historicaly, specialist were paying their due with services (otherwise they might migrate to a rival barony/country or whatever). The materials were paid by the "crown" but the actual work was free.

3) Yes knights were costly to maintain. And guess what? So were soldiers. All their basic expanses were paid for. But the wonder of the medieval system was that many knights were themselves, product to be leased (free of charge) to the king. So were armies. A lord would pay for his army and part of that army would work for the Count, then the Duke, then the King and so on. The knights/soldiers will not get paid for each weapon swings/arrows fired. The same will be assumed for casters. This is only logical.

So the caster will see his material expenses paid for the spell by the "crown", but not the actual casting. This will be a service provide either for taxes, or for priviledge. A caster might well be asked to work for the "crown" 12 days per years. This will enable a "recast" should a spell be triggered.
Cold will not affect the cells.
Spells that will deal necrotic damage: Inflict wounds (some casters can be clerics you know and an upcast is always possible), Blight for Arcane casters (nothing prevents the caster to be a bit higher). And we could add even more, but you see the point.

Also, the spell would not destroy a cell, damage yes, but it could quickly be repaired with a simple mending or even stone shape.

You might see this a forced labor and in a modern point of view, you would be right. But imagine yourself in a country where monsters, and evil countries exists and you will see it differently. This becomes a matter of survival as doing such minimal work for the crown also enhance your own security. Who knows? the spell you cast for your king might prevent a spy from a rival evil empire (and this time, it might not be a perceived evil, but a true one. Iuz comes to mind here).

And you might add:" But the caster will have less spells to defend himself!" Well both yes and no. The lord would and will provide guards to protect the caster while working for him/her. That's at least what any sensible lord would do.

Also, wizard accademies (especially war wizard ones) would work exclusively for the king. This means that they are expensive, yes, but such an accademy will provide such services for almost free (the basic cost of the spell, nothing more) all year round! Temples will also provide such services for free (save the costs of the spell itself) just to keep the right to stay in the country, or to be the official state religion, or simply to avoid taxation of their own property. And again, the service will be seem by lawful churches as a necessary cost/work/service to ensure that Law is upheld and thus furthering the goals of their ethos.

And for a barony, the court wizard will do these services year round for absolutely free! Well, the wizard will need the material components, but these will be already provided by the baron/count/duke or whatever. Even the local church will be put to contribution if the local priest is high enough.

And again, you are entirely free to do it the way you do it. But that does not invalidate my point by one iota. I encourage you to check BECMI cyclopedia for the rules of services in it. The old DMG 1ed also had some good notes.

 

[Chaosmancer]

I think just an Arcane Lock is more reasonable to be mass cast on all cells, it's just level 2 and has cheaper components. With a normal lock, it's DC 25, which is still doable by a level 1 Rogue, especially with Expertise, but still pretty hard.

A +3 from dex and +4 from expertise, you'd need at least DC 28 to be impossible, so a lock with a base DC of 18, which the rules say a DM can make, but more expensive.

Definitely more reasonable in general, but still not necessarily reasonable for being applied even to minor villages in the middle of nowhere.

 

[Zubatcarteira]

Definitely more reasonable in general, but still not necessarily reasonable for being applied even to minor villages in the middle of nowhere.

Well, it's about 90 gp for a cast, which is surely a lot, but the budget for NPC stuff is always odd. A basic CR 1/8 guard has a chain shirt, a shield and a spear, which adds up to 61 gp, so if you have those it's not unreasonable to buy a lock like that, especially since it lasts until dispelled and it won't be disabled permanently even if it's picked (or I think it does, it's not too clear from the spell's wording).

 

[Chaosmancer]

Wow... lots of numbers, all wrong unfortunately.
1) Prices for in the PHB are for players only. This is to avoid a barter fest with each transaction. I can see why you assume that between NPCs it would be so. But it was not generaly the case.

Many of the prices I used were from the DMG and the Adventurer's league official numbers as well. But, you can't just declare that the prices are different than the source material because player's don't barter. Besides, if you can just decide prices are lower, I can just decide that they are higher. We need to use the official materials to have a discussion at all, instead of just a game of calvinball.

2) Historicaly, specialist were paying their due with services (otherwise they might migrate to a rival barony/country or whatever). The materials were paid by the "crown" but the actual work was free.

So, you want the crown to shell out 6,000 gold in materials for a few single use items, so that the wizard can pay his 9,000 in taxes, meaning they only make a profit of 3,000 gp in value... again for single use explosive death for petty pickpockets and drunks.

This is INCREDIBLY poor management of resources.

3) Yes knights were costly to maintain. And guess what? So were soldiers. All their basic expanses were paid for. But the wonder of the medieval system was that many knights were themselves, product to be leased (free of charge) to the king. So were armies. A lord would pay for his army and part of that army would work for the Count, then the Duke, then the King and so on. The knights/soldiers will not get paid for each weapon swings/arrows fired. The same will be assumed for casters. This is only logical.

So, you aren't actually paying attention to WHY I mentioned the knights. You said that the wizard was doing this magic to pay his taxes. This was your claim. I am merely pointing out that if you are right, then using some basic numbers and looking at a reasonable measure of importance in terms of knights, the wizard is likely ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST AND MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THE KINGDOM. You would essentially be having the King's Uncle going to Mudville to set a trap for a pickpocket.


Now, if you are shifting your argument, because you find your original argument to be untenable, then it would be polite of you to say so, to eliminate confusion.

Cold will not affect the cells.

Extreme sudden cold like what is caused by a spell could very easily cause thermal contraction and shatter stone.

Also, I double checked the DMG, stone walls are not listed with "immunity to cold". Yes, it does say to use your best judgement, but like I mentioned, thermal contraction can shatter stone. It can even more easily shatter steel that has been buried in stone, you know, like the bars of the cell.

Spells that will deal necrotic damage: Inflict wounds (some casters can be clerics you know and an upcast is always possible), Blight for Arcane casters (nothing prevents the caster to be a bit higher). And we could add even more, but you see the point.

Note that I continued talking about wizards, the original example, so I didn't count clerics. Yes, if you decide to change it from a wizard to a cleric, then you may be able to have necrotic damage. Thinking about it though, how many taxes did the church pay in medieval times? Oh right, they tried to pay as few taxes as humanly possible. And considering a 5th level cleric can raise a dead knight saving the kingdom thousands of gold... I think they'd prioritize healing and raising the dead for their taxes instead of trapping cells for pickpockets.

I could have assumed that instead of a 5th level wizard we had an 8th level wizard who casts two fourth level spells which would cost them ~750 gp instead of the 550. I figured not doing so was a kindness.

Also, the spell would not destroy a cell, damage yes, but it could quickly be repaired with a simple mending or even stone shape.

Sure, more magic is always an answer. It just increases the cost of this entire endeavor though.

You might see this a forced labor and in a modern point of view, you would be right. But imagine yourself in a country where monsters, and evil countries exists and you will see it differently. This becomes a matter of survival as doing such minimal work for the crown also enhance your own security. Who knows? the spell you cast for your king might prevent a spy from a rival evil empire (and this time, it might not be a perceived evil, but a true one. Iuz comes to mind here).

And you might add:" But the caster will have less spells to defend himself!" Well both yes and no. The lord would and will provide guards to protect the caster while working for him/her. That's at least what any sensible lord would do.

No, I'm thinking "pickpockets and drunks aren't spies". This is a level of paranoia and extremism that I find utterly bizarre.

Also, wizard accademies (especially war wizard ones) would work exclusively for the king. This means that they are expensive, yes, but such an accademy will provide such services for almost free (the basic cost of the spell, nothing more) all year round! Temples will also provide such services for free (save the costs of the spell itself) just to keep the right to stay in the country, or to be the official state religion, or simply to avoid taxation of their own property. And again, the service will be seem by lawful churches as a necessary cost/work/service to ensure that Law is upheld and thus furthering the goals of their ethos.

And for a barony, the court wizard will do these services year round for absolutely free! Well, the wizard will need the material components, but these will be already provided by the baron/count/duke or whatever. Even the local church will be put to contribution if the local priest is high enough.

Absolutely free, except for the thousands of gold spent on materials. Again, not for the most important cells of the kingdom, not for the king's maximum security prison, but for every village in the entire region.

Don't you know that the entire point of a maximum security prison is that they are MORE secure than the local village prison? They don't get the royal academy of wizards securing their cells. They are lucky to have stone and steel to make an actual jail cell.

Though I suppose they could use stone shape and wall of stone to make every building in the kingdom from stone. Wizards work for free after all.

And again, you are entirely free to do it the way you do it. But that does not invalidate my point by one iota. I encourage you to check BECMI cyclopedia for the rules of services in it. The old DMG 1ed also had some good notes.

I think the rules for 5e are more relevant for talking about a 5e game. If you were playing a 1e game, then that BECMI table might be more relevant, but that isn't the case.

 

[Voadam]

The mechanical importance of the specific gods has changed over the course of D&D.

In OD&D, B/X, and BECMI it mattered very little, clerics were clerics with the same powers regardless of the god, with some variation for Lawful vs. Chaotic clerical powers. I played in a number of B/X games where there were plenty of PC and NPC clerics but no explicitly defined gods.

In 1e AD&D the status of the god limited the level of the spells you could get as a cleric but otherwise clerics generally got powers that only varied by whether the cleric was evil versus good. 1e Deities and Demigods added in specifications about worshiper alignments for specific gods in the pantheons it offered and defined a number of deities by power level. 1e World of Greyhawk added to this in the boxed set with some campaign world specific gods giving out tailored bonus powers to their clerics, sometimes in return for an increased xp requirement. In 2e clerics were generally mechanically generic clerics like in 1e, but you also got specialty priests and an explosion of god specific specialty priests with hugely variable themed powers and spell selections. For 2e specialty priests which gods were in the campaign was generally a big mechanically important issue.

In 3e clerics were the same except for their domains which varied by god. It had a default pantheon which I saw regularly used as a generic D&D one in games so many players could generally count on making a sun-domain Pelor cleric as defined in the PH unless their DM said they were specifically using a non-default deity setup. prestige classes for clerics could be god specific or not.

In 4e there was a defined default pantheon but the individual gods did not impact the mechanics of the cleric class.

In 5e it is like 3e in tying the domain portion of the cleric class to specific gods, but there is no default pantheon or defined list of deities with domains, only suggested ones and no default.

 

[Helldritch]

Many of the prices I used were from the DMG and the Adventurer's league official numbers as well. But, you can't just declare that the prices are different than the source material because player's don't barter. Besides, if you can just decide prices are lower, I can just decide that they are higher. We need to use the official materials to have a discussion at all, instead of just a game of calvinball.

These costs are for PCs.

So, you want the crown to shell out 6,000 gold in materials for a few single use items, so that the wizard can pay his 9,000 in taxes, meaning they only make a profit of 3,000 gp in value... again for single use explosive death for petty pickpockets and drunks.

This is INCREDIBLY poor management of resources.

See down below.

So, you aren't actually paying attention to WHY I mentioned the knights. You said that the wizard was doing this magic to pay his taxes. This was your claim. I am merely pointing out that if you are right, then using some basic numbers and looking at a reasonable measure of importance in terms of knights, the wizard is likely ONE OF THE WEALTHIEST AND MOST POWERFUL PEOPLE IN THE KINGDOM. You would essentially be having the King's Uncle going to Mudville to set a trap for a pickpocket.

See down below.

Now, if you are shifting your argument, because you find your original argument to be untenable, then it would be polite of you to say so, to eliminate confusion.

No I am not. That is your claim.

Extreme sudden cold like what is caused by a spell could very easily cause thermal contraction and shatter stone.

Thermal shock is caused by extreme heat followed by extreme cold. That is not what the spell is doing.

Also, I double checked the DMG, stone walls are not listed with "immunity to cold". Yes, it does say to use your best judgement, but like I mentioned, thermal contraction can shatter stone. It can even more easily shatter steel that has been buried in stone, you know, like the bars of the cell.

Then use your logic. For thermal shock to happen, you need extreme heat followed by extreme cold.

Note that I continued talking about wizards, the original example, so I didn't count clerics. Yes, if you decide to change it from a wizard to a cleric, then you may be able to have necrotic damage. Thinking about it though, how many taxes did the church pay in medieval times? Oh right, they tried to pay as few taxes as humanly possible. And considering a 5th level cleric can raise a dead knight saving the kingdom thousands of gold... I think they'd prioritize healing and raising the dead for their taxes instead of trapping cells for pickpockets.

I could have assumed that instead of a 5th level wizard we had an 8th level wizard who casts two fourth level spells which would cost them ~750 gp instead of the 550. I figured not doing so was a kindness.

You keep adding castings cost where I did say that these prices are for the players. It is after all, what the players can expect to pay. Not what the local lord will...

Sure, more magic is always an answer. It just increases the cost of this entire endeavor though.

The base cost is the same. The actual casting is always free.

No, I'm thinking "pickpockets and drunks aren't spies". This is a level of paranoia and extremism that I find utterly bizarre.

Not really. Pick pockets and drunk will not try to escape as their lives will not be endangered. Spies and criminals on the other hand...
So this is perfectly valid.

Absolutely free, except for the thousands of gold spent on materials. Again, not for the most important cells of the kingdom, not for the king's maximum security prison, but for every village in the entire region.

Yep. Not every villages will have a Jail. A jail is a big thing you know?

Don't you know that the entire point of a maximum security prison is that they are MORE secure than the local village prison? They don't get the royal academy of wizards securing their cells. They are lucky to have stone and steel to make an actual jail cell.

The maximum security prison of a fantasy world is temporal stasis. Especially with high magic as in 5ed.

Though I suppose they could use stone shape and wall of stone to make every building in the kingdom from stone. Wizards work for free after all.

For their lords to create fortifications for the kingdom? Sure. Conscription existed and still exists in some countries. Hey! Even our modern soldiers have an engineering department. The do not get paid over their usual wage for any work they do and yet they do build bridges and what not in times of war. In medieval fantasy world where the next invasion might be tomorrow. There are bound to have people working and being conscripted preemptively. That was done in our own world. This was called mandatory military service.

I think the rules for 5e are more relevant for talking about a 5e game. If you were playing a 1e game, then that BECMI table might be more relevant, but that isn't the case.

5ed is particularly silent on the NPC side of things. All you get is from the players' perspectives. Expanses of a kingdom and how they work are not defined. A DM in 5ed is left more or less in the dark or must rely either on homebrew or old material. But using the PHB on this is relatively pointless as these are the prices the players will pay.


Also. How much does 200 gold and incense actually costs? This is the price the players are expected to pay. But how much will the kingdom actually pay for these? 100 gold? That would be 50% players are expected to sell at about 10% to 25% the full price. A vendor/buyer will not buy for more than he will be able to acquire under "normal" means. Assuming parity of costs, it means that the acquiring costs is more akin to 50 gold. Add in bulk orders and you might even save an additional 10 to 15% bringing the costs around 43 golds (rounded up). Not the tremendous amount you are claiming.

Still, using the PHB is homebrewing what we should get from a rule expansion book. At best, it is an extrapolation of what we might see, at worst (and not meant as a pejorative here) pure homebrew. Maybe in the future we will get a book called barony, kingdom and empire creation? Until then, each DMs are on their own.

 

[Helldritch]

The mechanical importance of the specific gods has changed over the course of D&D.

In OD&D, B/X, and BECMI it mattered very little, clerics were clerics with the same powers regardless of the god, with some variation for Lawful vs. Chaotic clerical powers. I played in a number of B/X games where there were plenty of PC and NPC clerics but no explicitly defined gods.

In 1e AD&D the status of the god limited the level of the spells you could get as a cleric but otherwise clerics generally got powers that only varied by whether the cleric was evil versus good. 1e Deities and Demigods added in specifications about worshiper alignments for specific gods in the pantheons it offered and defined a number of deities by power level. 1e World of Greyhawk added to this in the boxed set with some campaign world specific gods giving out tailored bonus powers to their clerics, sometimes in return for an increased xp requirement. In 2e clerics were generally mechanically generic clerics like in 1e, but you also got specialty priests and an explosion of god specific specialty priests with hugely variable themed powers and spell selections. For 2e specialty priests which gods were in the campaign was generally a big mechanically important issue.

In 3e clerics were the same except for their domains which varied by god. It had a default pantheon which I saw regularly used as a generic D&D one in games so many players could generally count on making a sun-domain Pelor cleric as defined in the PH unless their DM said they were specifically using a non-default deity setup. prestige classes for clerics could be god specific or not.

In 4e there was a defined default pantheon but the individual gods did not impact the mechanics of the cleric class.

In 5e it is like 3e in tying the domain portion of the cleric class to specific gods, but there is no default pantheon or defined list of deities with domains, only suggested ones and no default.

Yep, lots of changes in the various editions. Add in some splat books and you get the mess we're in now...

 

[Maxperson]

I know Heldritch has already admitted to just trolling with this jail cell nonsense, but the mental gymnastics are astonishing.

Firstly, as I stated previously, the cost of running a small castle for a day is 100 gp. A single spelled cell is about 500 gp (rounding up for travel expenses). If we truly assume taxes, like Heldritch wants, in a medieval mindset, well first of all the wizard has to own land. Medieval taxes were for land owners until quite a bit later and closer to the renaissance. Generally, you didn't own land until name level, at level 9 so the wizard owing taxes is already suspect.

If we're assuming a high level wizard, he probably has a ton of money saved up or can go out and sell spells for a ton of money. 1st and 2nd level spells go for 10-50gp each. Imagine what a 4th or 5th level spell goes for. And high level wizards usually end up with whatever land they want for their towers. Rulers like to make friends of high level wizards. Very useful folks to have on your good side.

Additionally, this assumes that 5th level casters are common... in a world where Helldritch fully admits that writing backstories is pointless because 4/5ths of all characters die before 4th level. That is an 80% mortality rate. Considering not all wizards would immediately quit adventuring or start adventuring, you are STILL looking at a population that is going to be very small, and not at all common.

Why common? I mean, 5e RAW says spellcasters are relatively rare, but even with that if you have enough money you can make it happen. Rich people play rock stars(big names) to play at their parties, and there's only 1 of any given rock star in the world. Money talks.

 

[Maxperson]

I think just an Arcane Lock is more reasonable to be mass cast on all cells, it's just level 2 and has cheaper components. With a normal lock, it's DC 25, which is still doable by a level 1 Rogue, especially with Expertise, but still pretty hard.

A +3 from dex and +4 from expertise, you'd need at least DC 28 to be impossible, so a lock with a base DC of 18, which the rules say a DM can make, but more expensive.

In my game PCs need tools to open locks. Period. Whether their well made or improvised, they need something more than their fingers or tongue to open a lock.