D&D (2024) The sorcerer shouldn't exist

MoonSong

Rules-lawyering drama queen but not a munchkin
What difference does that make? The lore doesn't matter if the mechanics are using"wizard but x" instead and wotc is not willing to build a class with mechanics matching that lore. Until WotC is willing to build sorcerer mechanically for that lore instead of building a wizard subclass into a base class there is no reason for sorcerer to be wasting page space in the next edition.
Even if we take you at your word, the sorcerer isn't a wizard subclass mechanically. If anything it is the other way around. It is trivially easy to write a custom sorcerer subclass that covers 80% of a wizard without even getting overpowered. It is very hard to make a custom wizard subclass that scratches even a fraction of the sorcerer. "I just have magic" will always be broader and more general than "I studied very hard to get magic"
 

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Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
What difference does that make? The lore doesn't matter if the mechanics are using"wizard but x" instead and wotc is not willing to build a class with mechanics matching that lore. Until WotC is willing to build sorcerer mechanically for that lore instead of building a wizard subclass into a base class there is no reason for sorcerer to be wasting page space in the next edition.
The difference is that if WOTC is not bounded to backwards compatibility or the opinions of grognards, in 6e the lore of the 5e sorcerer can stay. The mechanics can die.
 



EzekielRaiden

Follower of the Way
What difference does that make? The lore doesn't matter if the mechanics are using"wizard but x" instead and wotc is not willing to build a class with mechanics matching that lore. Until WotC is willing to build sorcerer mechanically for that lore instead of building a wizard subclass into a base class there is no reason for sorcerer to be wasting page space in the next edition.
All the difference in the world.

We don't play D&D, or any RPG, solely for its mechanics. If we did, we would almost surely drop the vast majority of TTRPGs in favor of multiplayer CRPGs (MMO or not), because they're infinitely better-balanced and, in general, much more engaging as pure gameplay experiences.

As I have said many times, the thing that makes TTRPGs special is that they are gaming as and by roleplay, and roleplaying as and by game. We aren't playing description-free Statistics & Spreadsheets, we're playing Dungeons (dank murder-holes full of nasty bizarre creatures and shiny treasure) and Dragons (huge, flying, hyperintelligent lizards with scales like tenfold shields and breath hotter than a dwarven forge and ancient magic of awesome power).

The lore matters immensely. No less than the mechanics--and possibly more, I can forgive merely mediocre mechanics if the lore is awesome. I cannot forgive humdrum lore if the mechanics are awesome.

Further, your core thesis is simply wrong. The Sorcerer cannot be meaningfully represented as a Wizard subclass. You would not be able to capture the bloodline concept. At best, all you would get is the metamagic--because that alone MIGHT be small enough to squeeze into the Wizard chassis. Nothing else. No way that "literally JUST a Wizard with metamagic" would cover the breadth of the Sorcerer.

By comparison, the Wizard has exactly three non-subclass mechanics:
  • Arcane Recovery
  • Spell Mastery
  • Signature Spells
It also objectively fails to actually implement ANY part of its alleged lore. You do not do research as part of playing it--all research is shunted purely into downtime activities. You do not develop new spells; at best you pay others to be able to plagiarize the spells they've plagiarized from someone else. You do not display academic learning or training any more than literally anyone else who has access to knowledge skills like Nature and Arcana. Not one part of the Wizard, neither class nor subclass, has ANYTHING to do with the Wizard's thematics, and the vast majority of its mechanics are incredibly boring basic stuff ("cast more spells" "cast some spells at min level for free" "cast two stronger spells an extra time per day each").

This could trivially be turned into a Sorcerer subclass, without losing one iota of what makes the Wizard a Wizard; call it the "Arcane Bloodline" Sorcerous Origin. You could then make easily 3/4 of all Wizard subclasses into a single "Spell School" feat, which (in 5.5e) can be taken at 1st level but requires the Arcane Bloodline Sorcerous Origin. The few that would be too strong for that (e.g. Bladesinger) could be split into two feats or could kick in at 4th level instead.
 


tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
Even if we take you at your word, the sorcerer isn't a wizard subclass mechanically. If anything it is the other way around. It is trivially easy to write a custom sorcerer subclass that covers 80% of a wizard without even getting overpowered. It is very hard to make a custom wizard subclass that scratches even a fraction of the sorcerer. "I just have magic" will always be broader and more general than "I studied very hard to get magic"
I think Crawford contradicted this in one of the onednd UA videos where he stopped gushing about the sorcerer long enough to admit that the wizard's theme was pretty much spell list the class. If you have a class that is spell list the class you can't also have fluff & features the class sharing almost the entire spell list with the same slot and spell level access/progression. The 2014 5e sorcerer fails to find it's own path right out of the gate by simply building on top of the wizard's, that's the function and expected behavior of a subclass.
 

This could trivially be turned into a Sorcerer subclass, without losing one iota of what makes the Wizard a Wizard; call it the "Arcane Bloodline" Sorcerous Origin. You could then make easily 3/4 of all Wizard subclasses into a single "Spell School" feat, which (in 5.5e) can be taken at 1st level but requires the Arcane Bloodline Sorcerous Origin. The few that would be too strong for that (e.g. Bladesinger) could be split into two feats or could kick in at 4th level instead.
From GM Binder: Sorcerous Origin - Arcane Bloodline by ;)
 

Mecheon

Sacabambaspis
I think Crawford contradicted this in one of the onednd UA videos where he stopped gushing about the sorcerer long enough to admit that the wizard's theme was pretty much spell list the class. If you have a class that is spell list the class you can't also have fluff & features the class sharing almost the entire spell list with the same slot and spell level access/progression. The 2014 5e sorcerer fails to find it's own path right out of the gate by simply building on top of the wizard's, that's the function and expected behavior of a subclass.
I get the exact opposite from this: The wizard isn't designed well, given it has no feature outside of being spell lists. That's not enough to build a class from. So we should be scrapping the wizard or making it the sub-class. The sorcerer ideas don't fit into wizard, but wizard can fit into sorcerer
 

tetrasodium

Legend
Supporter
Epic
I get the exact opposite from this: The wizard isn't designed well, given it has no feature outside of being spell lists. That's not enough to build a class from. So we should be scrapping the wizard or making it the sub-class. The sorcerer ideas don't fit into wizard, but wizard can fit into sorcerer
If that were true then sorcerer wouldn't need to steal 90%+ of its spell list before adding extras and would set off on its own path. It's a situation like if barbarian got heavy armor second wind action surge rage a third attack at 11 and justified it by only having most of the battle master maneuvers. There's a point where the term embarrassment of riches is reached, sorcerer as designed currently targets it
 

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