The Surprise round anomally

[renau1g]

That's pretty crappy...I guess I've been breaking the rules all along. A way to help the ambusher out might be to apply a bonus to initiative, reflecting their surprise?

 

[C_M2008]

Actually, the action of "jumping out" seems to me to be the orcs actions for the surprise round. They are hidden behind some wall or boulder, and do a switch or a move to reveal themselves. End of surprise round, roll initiative…

The players are surprised because the orcs jumped out, not surprised and then the orcs jump out. That's how it makes sense to us at any rate.

 

[C_M2008]

double post my bad.

 

[lukelightning]

Which has, of course, been the difficult thing about Surprise rounds since 3E.

As an ambusher, in the surprise round you can:
a) Jump out (move action) and do nothing
b) .... I can't think of a b)

Fire a missile weapon? Blast with a spell?

At least it's not like first edition where the folks who surprise get to take some random number (1d6?) of rounds of action (technically "segments" in which they can make a round action) before the surprisees get to react.

I don't know if anyone really used those rules.

 

[renau1g]

Fire a missile weapon? Blast with a spell?

But if you're behind the big rock in question, you won't have line of sight to utilize these options, so you need to move out to gain that and surprise round is over.

 

[Sir Brennen]

The players are surprised because the orcs jumped out, not surprised and then the orcs jump out. That's how it makes sense to us at any rate.

This.

 

[bardolph]

Which has, of course, been the difficult thing about Surprise rounds since 3E.

As an ambusher, in the surprise round you can:
a) Jump out (move action) and do nothing
b) .... I can't think of a b)

B: Charge.
C: Make a ranged attack.

 

[Nyarlathotep]

With the lack of iterative attacks, how much would it break the game to remove the one action limit on the surprise round?

My group has always complained that the surprise round (in both 3.x and what we've played of 4E) is essentially useless (unless you get to go first in the non-surprise round). It's lead to a lot of cases of "You surprise the enemy! Now you can either move up to him and take a full attack when he goes, or wait for him to come to you!"

I can see in 3E the need for a standard or move restriction, but not so much for 4E. What do you all think?

 

[Ktulu]

If the orcs are behind a rock, then it would benefit them more to use surprise AFTER the party has walked by the rock, and get a charge from behind.

If they're in bushes, remember that charging is no longer stopped by difficult terrain, it just takes longer. Therefore, orcs can charge from the bushes out towards the party as part of the surprise round.

In any case, the orcs jumping out did use their surprise round to jump out, as per the rules. They would be smarter to hide longer so they can gain a charge or ranged attack, not just a move.

If the PC's are aware, then surprise rounds are not granted (I.e. if the orcs jump out, then roll initiative, they jumped as surprise)

 

[szilard]

Which has, of course, been the difficult thing about Surprise rounds since 3E.

As an ambusher, in the surprise round you can:
a) Jump out (move action) and do nothing
b) .... I can't think of a b)

Ummm... except that the surprise round doesn't start until someone is surprised.

If an orc is waiting behind a rock, he hasn't surprised me. When he jumps out from behind it, he surprises me. Then the surprise round begins.

-Stuart