D&D 5E The Thug, A Subclass for Strength Rogues

[BookBarbarian]

medium armor & shields would be overcompensating.

I think so too. And if you think about it when you see the thug on the street, you might think he's a an intimidating and shady character but if you see a Thug with a shield it tells a different story.

I think it would be like seeing today's bodyguards dressed in modern combat armor instead of suits (or in the case of the mafia, track suits.)

 

[Xeviat]

I agree about no Shield proficiency. A shield implies a "warrior" to me.


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[Remathilis]

Why? It deals less expected damage than a TWFing shortsword rogue, what with the greater chance to hit once. Or is it just an image thing for you?

The greatsword (and its cousin, the maul and lesser cousin, the greataxe) are already nearly the best weapons in the game. If you aren't proficient in shields, they are nearly no-brainer weapon if you're proficient. They also bring their abusive friend Great Weapon Master to bring along for the ride. Furthermore, a rogue wielding a greatsword and wearing medium armor blurs a little too close to fighter in appearance.

The "spring-attacking greatsword-rogues" of 3.5 still give me cold sweats...

 

[Xeviat]

The greatsword (and its cousin, the maul and lesser cousin, the greataxe) are already nearly the best weapons in the game. If you aren't proficient in shields, they are nearly no-brainer weapon if you're proficient. They also bring their abusive friend Great Weapon Master to bring along for the ride. Furthermore, a rogue wielding a greatsword and wearing medium armor blurs a little too close to fighter in appearance.

The "spring-attacking greatsword-rogues" of 3.5 still give me cold sweats...

I can see the dislike of it from an image stand point. But for a single attack attacker, the greatsword compares well against shortswords, especially given the way sneak attack works.

At 65% chance to hit (no advantage), you're looking at:

Great Sword: ((2d6+Sneak Attack+Str)*65%)+((2d6+sneak attack)*0.05)
Vs
Short Swords: ((1d6+Str)*65%)+(1d6*0.05)+(1d6*65%)+(1d6*0.05)+(Sneak Attack*87.5)+(sneak attack*6.75)

TWFing costs a bonus action here, but it only needs to be used when the first attack misses.

As for worries about GWM, the rogue can already use Sharp Shooter at range, so I'm not concerned with -5/+10; their sneak attack damage doesn't benefit it anyway.


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[Remathilis]

I can see the dislike of it from an image stand point. But for a single attack attacker, the greatsword compares well against shortswords, especially given the way sneak attack works.

At 65% chance to hit (no advantage), you're looking at:

Great Sword: ((2d6+Sneak Attack+Str)*65%)+((2d6+sneak attack)*0.05)
Vs
Short Swords: ((1d6+Str)*65%)+(1d6*0.05)+(1d6*65%)+(1d6*0.05)+(Sneak Attack*87.5)+(sneak attack*6.75)

TWFing costs a bonus action here, but it only needs to be used when the first attack misses.

As for worries about GWM, the rogue can already use Sharp Shooter at range, so I'm not concerned with -5/+10; their sneak attack damage doesn't benefit it anyway.


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Couple things your missing.

Sharpshooter caps with either a 1d6 weapon (shortbow) or 1d8 weapon (light crossbow); the latter eats your bonus action to reload unless you want to sink ANOTHER feat into it. Further, TWF requires you to burn your bonus action to use it, which a rogue in melee is often better spent using for disengage to get out of melee with the foe. What a greatsword wielding rogue does is COMBINE the best of both options; the damage of two successful TWF attacks + damage bonus equal to sharpshooter + free use of bonus action to disengage. Its straight-up superior to either option, especially when combined with advantage (which is easy enough to get and one of the ways you get SA anyway).

Oh, want to get sick? Take a level of fighter and take Great Weapon Master. Reroll all 1's and 2's on sneak attack dice? Yes please!

A thug SA with a longsword (one-handed, not versatile) is completely in line with the rogue's other best options (rapier for dex, light crossbow for ranged). A greatsword dwarfs all other options.

 

[Xeviat]

Couple things your missing.

Sharpshooter caps with either a 1d6 weapon (shortbow) or 1d8 weapon (light crossbow); the latter eats your bonus action to reload unless you want to sink ANOTHER feat into it. Further, TWF requires you to burn your bonus action to use it, which a rogue in melee is often better spent using for disengage to get out of melee with the foe. What a greatsword wielding rogue does is COMBINE the best of both options; the damage of two successful TWF attacks + damage bonus equal to sharpshooter + free use of bonus action to disengage. Its straight-up superior to either option, especially when combined with advantage (which is easy enough to get and one of the ways you get SA anyway).

Oh, want to get sick? Take a level of fighter and take Great Weapon Master. Reroll all 1's and 2's on sneak attack dice? Yes please!

A thug SA with a longsword (one-handed, not versatile) is completely in line with the rogue's other best options (rapier for dex, light crossbow for ranged). A greatsword dwarfs all other options.

Yes, TWFing costs a bonus action; that's payment for the huge increase in your chance to land a sneak attack. No need to withdraw if your target is dead.

Great Weapon Master doesn't let you reroll sneak attack dice (or smite dice); this has been stated.

SA longsword will allow a 1d10 weapon (versatile), so 2d6 isn't a big jump.

If you're throwing multiclassing in, then rogue longbow would exist. Or the dreaded crossbow expert/sharp shooter.

I don't think Advantage is the most common way to gain sneak attack. Attacking someone who is adjacent to an ally is in my experience. Advantage isn't terribly common on attacks, at least with the way my players play. We don't use the flanking rules either.

Last, the level 3 ability for a rogue is a damage increase for the assassin. Getting to use different weapons is the thugs damage increase. If they can't versatile a longsword or otherwise jump up from a 1d8 one-handed weapon, then TWFing is still their best damage option, like the Base rogue.


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[Remathilis]

Yes, TWFing costs a bonus action; that's payment for the huge increase in your chance to land a sneak attack. No need to withdraw if your target is dead.

Assuming you can kill it in one hit. Otherwise your d8 hp is going to turn you to paste.

Great Weapon Master doesn't let you reroll sneak attack dice (or smite dice); this has been stated.

Debatable, but I'm willing (since they later DID declare it doesn't stack with smite or BA dice) to accept that.

SA longsword will allow a 1d10 weapon (versatile), so 2d6 isn't a big jump.

See below on why d10 isn't a good idea either.

If you're throwing multiclassing in, then rogue longbow would exist. Or the dreaded crossbow expert/sharp shooter.

Hell, ELF Rogues get it with no MC needed. Still only a d8, which is < 2d6.

I don't think Advantage is the most common way to gain sneak attack. Attacking someone who is adjacent to an ally is in my experience. Advantage isn't terribly common on attacks, at least with the way my players play. We don't use the flanking rules either.

You're not trying hard enough.

[sblock=Advantage in Combat]
- Enemy is Blinded
- Enemy is Paralyzed
- You are Invisible
- Enemy is Prone, and you are within 5 feet
- Enemy is Restrained
- Enemy is Stunned
- Enemy is Unconscious
- You have “Help” from an ally
- You are hidden, or the enemy is otherwise unaware of your presence
- Vengeance Paladin’s Vow of Enmity
- The creature is threatened by one or more of your allies (optional rule)
- If the target is affected by Faerie Fire (spell) and you can see them
- You are the target of Foresight (spell)
- The target has been hit by Guiding Bolt (spell), and the casters next turn has not started
- The target is affected by Otto’s Irresistible Dance (spell)
- True Strike (spell) grants advantage on your next attack against the target
- Mounted Combatant (Feat) advantage against unmounted creatures smaller than your mount
- Inspiration[/sblock]

Last, the level 3 ability for a rogue is a damage increase for the assassin. Getting to use different weapons is the thugs damage increase. If they can't versatile a longsword or otherwise jump up from a 1d8 one-handed weapon, then TWFing is still their best damage option, like the Base rogue.

Just like the Thief, Arcane Trickster, Swashbuckler, and Mastermind, to be exact.

The thug should be about using strength weapons, but not any damn weapon he wants. I have no problem with them getting longswords, maces, or warhammers to SA with, but weapons used two-handed (even versatile) should be verboten. Its a step too far and outclasses nearly any other option for rogues.

 

[Larrin]

For level 17 maybe focus on the fact that thugs aren't just bullies, they're tough SOBs, or at least by level 17 they should be. You've got them smacking people around, now let them get smacked around and shrug it off with a contemptuous sneer.
Maybe some combination/variation of:
* you have Resistance against attacks that have disadvantage against you.
*...or maybe you have resistance to damage from targets you've sneak attacked since last round.
*successful sneak attacks give temp HP (based on str)
*your hit die (and HP per level) increases to d10 for level 17 and on in the rogue class (actually that's a bit awkward probably)

Something to keep you in the fight longer, as opposed to the other rouge level 17's which tend to be about making the fight shorter (kinda).

 

[Xeviat]

Assuming you can kill it in one hit. Otherwise your d8 hp is going to turn you to paste.



Debatable, but I'm willing (since they later DID declare it doesn't stack with smite or BA dice) to accept that.



See below on why d10 isn't a good idea either.



Hell, ELF Rogues get it with no MC needed. Still only a d8, which is < 2d6.



You're not trying hard enough.

[sblock=Advantage in Combat]
- Enemy is Blinded
- Enemy is Paralyzed
- You are Invisible
- Enemy is Prone, and you are within 5 feet
- Enemy is Restrained
- Enemy is Stunned
- Enemy is Unconscious
- You have “Help” from an ally
- You are hidden, or the enemy is otherwise unaware of your presence
- Vengeance Paladin’s Vow of Enmity
- The creature is threatened by one or more of your allies (optional rule)
- If the target is affected by Faerie Fire (spell) and you can see them
- You are the target of Foresight (spell)
- The target has been hit by Guiding Bolt (spell), and the casters next turn has not started
- The target is affected by Otto’s Irresistible Dance (spell)
- True Strike (spell) grants advantage on your next attack against the target
- Mounted Combatant (Feat) advantage against unmounted creatures smaller than your mount
- Inspiration[/sblock]



Just like the Thief, Arcane Trickster, Swashbuckler, and Mastermind, to be exact.

The thug should be about using strength weapons, but not any damn weapon he wants. I have no problem with them getting longswords, maces, or warhammers to SA with, but weapons used two-handed (even versatile) should be verboten. Its a step too far and outclasses nearly any other option for rogues.

2d6 is a +3.5 damage per round increase over the short sword. Even just a bare short sword. It's a 2.5 increase over the rapier or longsword.

Getting to sneak attack with one-handed longswords is not an improvement. Getting to sneak attack with maces will help against skeletons; they're the only thing with damage resistance to one specific physical damage, right? At 3rd level, a free crit on a surprised target is going to be +3d6 damage in some combats. +2.5 per round will be +7.5 over a whole fight. If you hit. You might not win initiative, you may miss with some attacks.

Getting Medium Armor at 3rd level is barely a bonus. It's not a full level's bonus. And you make a lot over the rogue's d8 HD; it's their lower AC that makes them have a harder time in melee, not missing 1 HP per level. At least in my experience. Uncanny Dodge and Evasion strongly make up for lower HP.

At this point, I'm not arguing with you. I'm making a case to [MENTION=98332]clutchbone[/MENTION] so they can decide what they want to do.

A standard Rogue will likely have AC 15 at 3rd level (16 Dex, +2 studded). Chainshirt with a 14+ Dex will be the same 15 AC; scalemail will be AC 16 with a stealth penalty. For the character who started with a 14 or lower Dex, it is a boost, but it's not much of a boost over the baseline Rogue. It actually ends up the same or lower AC than a 20 Dex Studded Armor wearer, whether or not you want to accept the stealth penalty.

If you aren't allowing weapons to be used versatilely, then it's behind the Assassin at 3rd level.

For level 17 maybe focus on the fact that thugs aren't just bullies, they're tough SOBs, or at least by level 17 they should be. You've got them smacking people around, now let them get smacked around and shrug it off with a contemptuous sneer.
Maybe some combination/variation of:
* you have Resistance against attacks that have disadvantage against you.
*...or maybe you have resistance to damage from targets you've sneak attacked since last round.
*successful sneak attacks give temp HP (based on str)
*your hit die (and HP per level) increases to d10 for level 17 and on in the rogue class (actually that's a bit awkward probably)

Something to keep you in the fight longer, as opposed to the other rouge level 17's which tend to be about making the fight shorter (kinda).

That's a nifty idea. I find myself missing the "weakened" condition.

 

[Ilbranteloth]

True story, I first had Extortionist named as Coercion, but it didn't feel like "enough" of a name. Violent Coercion sounds great, meshes well with the Strength bonus.

I really like Kick Them When They're Down, would you mind if I used it as my 17th level feature? It trades offense for defense (Uncanny Dodge), which is a neat tactical choice. I'd probably rename it Cheap Shot for brevity. You can use your Reaction on your own turn as well.

Rules question: Fighter with Shield Master attacks (action) and prones (bonus action) a target. He could use his reaction then, but chooses not to. Ends his turn. Next creature/player's turn, could the fighter then use his reaction to Kick Them When They're Down? I'd probably clear up the timing by adding something similar to "when a creature that you can see starts it's turn prone or incapacitated within 5 feet of you".

Go for it, that's why I posted it, in case you wanted to use any of it.

The trigger for the reaction is "when they are knocked prone" as opposed to somebody who is already prone. But I don't think the other option would break anything.