D&D 5E The Thug, A Subclass for Strength Rogues

[Remathilis]

I would consider allowing Dirty Work to expand to any STR based weapon. It would average another 3-4 points per combat which seems a reasonable bump.

Please, by all deities, archdevils and demon lords, I NEVER want to see a greatsword sneak attack again!

 

[Xeviat]

Please, by all deities, archdevils and demon lords, I NEVER want to see a greatsword sneak attack again!

Why? It deals less expected damage than a TWFing shortsword rogue, what with the greater chance to hit once. Or is it just an image thing for you?

As for the OP, I like everything except Fighting Style at 17. Fighting style is worth half a feat at best, so it's not a full level's worth. I'd give them something like a save or stun against surprised foes.


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[Kobold Stew]

A possibility for level 17: the opportunity to make a Sneak Attack every time you take the Attack action and are using an appropriate weapon.

 

[Kobold Stew]

Another thought for level 3:

earlier I suggested you can make a Sneak Attack while wielding any simple weapon or a weapon with the finesse ability. Maybe add "unarmed strikes". It won't be used often, but it gives a cool image, for a pit-fighter (say), who then doesn't have to be a monk.

 

[Valmarius]

I like it overall, but would change the Wisdom (insight) check to resist the lvl 9 ability to a Charisma save. Possibly set the DC as 8+Str mod+proficiency, so that it's essentially a strength based Intimidation check, but doesn't rely on you having Intimidation proficiency.

It just struck me as odd to use insight as the resistance, as if the character's intimidation was a bluff the target might see through.

 

[clutchbone]

It would seem to me that these are things that any class can declare to do. It doesn't sound like an actual class feature or ability.

Can't a wizard simply say: "I gag the captured bandit"? So how is that a class feature?

So far I'm not seeing anything really unique about this subclass. You mention that the Thug could be both a criminal and a none-criminal character (bodyguards, bounty hunters, secret police, and spies), but I don't see anything in the abilities that fit a good character at all. And is a bodyguard really a thug? Is a spy a thug, or a bounty hunter? I don't see it.

More importantly, I don't see how a character specialized in abduction would even function in an adventuring party.

Thanks for taking the time to look this over. You have some interesting viewpoints, which I'll try to address.

Yes, a wizard could gag a bandit that is already captured, but only a Thug can do this as part of a grapple action, to better capture that bandit in the first place without him yelling for help. This is Exploration Pillar stuff, to build on the Rogue's traditional roll as a scout. Sneak ahead, nab a sentry, and bring him back for interrogation (aided by your intimidation buff).

As for "good characters" I see the Thug as occupying more or less the same moral ground as the Assassin, so there's official precedent. I mean, a bounty hunter's whole profession is abducting people... "Wanted: Dead or Alive"? Secret police make people disappear, spies (think less James Bond, more Jack Bauer) exfiltrate hostile targets for extraordinary rendition, etc.

I think the grapple buff feature is pretty applicable to the adventuring life. There's the aforementioned sentry nabbing, battlefield control (grab a dude and throw him into your spellcaster's AoE spell), enemy spellcaster lockdown (there are only 9 spells in the PHB without a verbal component), and so on.

I think 'blindfold' and 'gag' create the impression the Thug is actually tying something to the victim, which I don't think is what you're getting at?

Yeah, labeling the effects with noun words like "gag" and "blindfold" is probably confusing, so I should change that.

 

[clutchbone]

Well then they do it as their next action. But does that really warrant a separate ability/feat? It just sounds like more of a roleplaying action rather than something that needs its own ability/feat.

Personally I would allow my players to declare what they are trying to achieve during a grapple. Are they simply holding their adversary in place, or trying to gag him, or blindfold him? Couldn't you try to attempt to pull your cloak over the head of the enemy that you are grappling as part of the grapple? Frankly, I would allow it, but it may require an extra check.

The idea was improved action economy, doing two things at once. Next turn you can attack instead of making an extra check.

 

[clutchbone]

Overall I like it!

This is exactly the sort of build the Rogue needs. Well done.

I like it a lot, and I like the idea of luring rogues away from Dexterity as prime stat.

First Impressions:

It looks fun.
multiclassing with barbarian looks even more fun.
Fighting style is an uninspiring subclass capstone.

I'm a fan overall.

Thanks guys!

Yeah, I'm not happy with the fighting styles either. There are some good ideas here though to look through. I felt Medium armor was needed to compensate for lower dex, but medium armor & shields would be overcompensating.

 

[clutchbone]

Violent Coercion
Starting at 7th level, you are an imposing figure that can inspire fear in others. You add your Strength modifier to your Intimidation checks. As an action, you can attempt to intimidate any target within 30 feet that you can see that has taken damage from you. The target must make a Wisdom saving throw or be frightened. The target may make another saving throw at the end of each turn to end the condition. If the target succeeds on the saving throw, they cannot be affected by your ability for 24 hours.

Kick Them When They're Down
At 15th level, you're prepared to take advantage of any weakness. Whenever a creature within 5' of you that you can see is knocked prone or is incapacitated, you can use your reaction to make one weapon attack against the prone target.

True story, I first had Extortionist named as Coercion, but it didn't feel like "enough" of a name. Violent Coercion sounds great, meshes well with the Strength bonus.

I really like Kick Them When They're Down, would you mind if I used it as my 17th level feature? It trades offense for defense (Uncanny Dodge), which is a neat tactical choice. I'd probably rename it Cheap Shot for brevity. You can use your Reaction on your own turn as well.

Rules question: Fighter with Shield Master attacks (action) and prones (bonus action) a target. He could use his reaction then, but chooses not to. Ends his turn. Next creature/player's turn, could the fighter then use his reaction to Kick Them When They're Down? I'd probably clear up the timing by adding something similar to "when a creature that you can see starts it's turn prone or incapacitated within 5 feet of you".

 

[clutchbone]

I like it overall, but would change the Wisdom (insight) check to resist the lvl 9 ability to a Charisma save. Possibly set the DC as 8+Str mod+proficiency, so that it's essentially a strength based Intimidation check, but doesn't rely on you having Intimidation proficiency.

It just struck me as odd to use insight as the resistance, as if the character's intimidation was a bluff the target might see through.

Actually, that was what I was thinking of! Like you roar and beat your chest, but if they see you get hurt or knocked out they won't be afraid anymore.

Rogues are skill monkeys and I was hoping to add utility to the Thug's intimidation skill, like the swashbuckler does for persuasion with Panache, and the mastermind does for deception with Soul of Deceit. Both of those are contested by Insight, so I was following the trend.