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The Troubadour's Travels - Low Magic [D&D 3.5/G'n'GR] [Recruiting]

wysiwyg

First Post
I had a third level character drop an owlbear (a large critter, with all the advantages that that bestows in GnG) with one blow because he rolled well, and the owlbear didn't.

You just reminded me of another point I was going to mention -
The randomness of this system seems unlikely that characters will survive for very long. All it would take is one lucky attack roll for the NPC and one unlucky defence roll for the player . It might not happen in the first round of the first encounter. But how unlikely is it to happen after say 10 rounds of combat (say in two different encounters). Statistically speaking, PC's are going to die very often.
The odds of the PCs surviving an encounter where they are heavily outnumbered by low level CR creatures is highly unlikely as more and more attacks are dealt and the odds of the above become more and more likely.

I wouldn't want to get attached to a PC that is likely to die sometime in the first 20 rounds of his combat career. Have you considered that the GnG system might be too realistic?
 

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wysiwyg

First Post
[sblock]This is simply not true. A 6-th level barbarian would have 6 base defense, and with these arrays probably at least +1 from dexterity. Also, he would have a soak value of somewhere around 6 (+4 from chain shirt, +2 from Con) supposing he hasn't taken Toughness. When raging, he'd have a soak of 8 due to con bonus.
A first level wizard would have a defense of maybe 1 (+1 dexterity), and a soak of 1 from con. If he has cast Magic Armor, he'd have a soak of 5.

If someone attacked these and rolled for example 20 on the attack roll, and dealt a base damage of 1d8+5 damage (average 9), they situation would be:
For barbarian: Supposing average defense roll, he'd take 9 damage +3 from attack bonus difference. 12 damage would be reduced to 6 after the soak, and to 4 if he raged.
For wizard: Supposing average defense roll, he'd take 9 damage +9 from attack bonus difference. 18 damage would be reduced to 17 from soak, or 13 if mage armor was up. He'd take more than double the damage of the barbarian regardless.

Firstly, don't forget that while the barbarian rages his AC drops by 2. This infact works to his deteriment. Before raging he was less likely to get hit (and a miss would give him no damage). Now, while raging, he is more likely to get hit, and will take same amount of damage as before (the +2 soak damage will be discarded by the -2 AC when you take the difference between the attack and the defence rolls).


Not to mention, that you were comparing a 1st level wizard to a 6th level barbarian (with a higher Con). Since the stat pool that is given is the same for all players, I would imaging that for both the barbarian and the wizard the second and third highest stats would be given to Dex & Con.


Also, melee classes should be given more Soak points in order for them to survive as they will constantly be the front liners. It makes sense that these classes should toughen up a little during their careers. The ideas I brought did not overly change them. The entire range would be from -2 Soak points for a 1st level 4HD class to +5 soak points for a 6th level 12HD class.
 

Toptomcat

First Post
At the risk of belaboring the obvious, don't frequent character deaths and making it a very stupid idea to take on vastly superior numbers sound like a "grim and gritty' system working precisely as advertised?
 

Ilja

First Post
I actually feel that the very fact that this system has been playtested and played extensively is evidence enough that it works for some campaigns, and this is very much that kind of campaign. I don't really feel that this discussion is making any progress, and that it shouldn't be in this thread anyway. I'll write a last answer here for some of the more technical differences and then I'll leave it at that.

The randomness of this system seems unlikely that characters will survive for very long. All it would take is one lucky attack roll for the NPC and one unlucky defence roll for the player .

[sblock]Well, you usually have to be very unlucky and he has to be very lucky, and it's a small chance that it'll happen too soon. The risk of the attacker rolling 18+ and the defender rolling 3 or less is less than 1/40, and even then it's in no way sure that he is killed if wearing armor.
You're not supposed to take on vastly greater numbers than the party, and this system definately puts CR out of the question for determining encounters. However, I won't create encounters where you have to fight fifteen first-level tiraks - I might create encounters where you can, and where you will if you act stupid, but combat will be less slaying five orcs per round and more carefully ambushing the leader of the group.
If you want to kill many enemies at a time, make ambushes and traps. Create an avalanche or trap them in an alley with five hired archers in the windows.
More tactics.[/sblock]

Firstly, don't forget that while the barbarian rages his AC drops by 2.
Ah, yes, forgot about that. You're right, when raging you're more likely to take damage.

Not to mention, that you were comparing a 1st level wizard to a 6th level barbarian (with a higher Con). Since the stat pool that is given is the same for all players, I would imaging that for both the barbarian and the wizard the second and third highest stats would be given to Dex & Con.
[sblock]Well I think we have different play style, due to different focus between "role" and "playing". Also, if it's point buy rather than arrays or dice, a wizard usually opts for higher intelligence than a barbarian goes for strength, so there'll be less points to invest in other skills. And the barbarian's had a +1 to a score due to being over level 4. So in my usual groups games, those stats are albeit counting low quite the propotions they usually are.[/sblock]

Also, melee classes should be given more Soak points in order for them to survive as they will constantly be the front liners.
[sblock]
If they're constantly in the front lines of big battles without taking the toughness feat and/or wearing heavy armor, then they are doing it wrong. And they do take less damage than a wizard due to higher defense rating. There's no logical reason for them to generally take less damage from a stab, other than being better at avoiding it or "rolling with the blow", something that is represented by defense. Barbarians get it a bit, via DR, though that isn't going to be relevant in an E6 game since it's at level 7.

In E6, 6th-level barbarians has access to a special feat which grant them this ability, but since DR x/- and soak is about the same thing, it's more like allowing an extra level of toughness. I could if you want swap it so that you get DR 1/- (an extra point of soak) at level 5, and that Improved Uncanny Dodge is their capstone feat instead (requiring Barb level 6).

A fighter type should invest some of his feats in Toughness, to do exactly what you are looking after. If you look at the GnG rules, Toughness now gives Soak 1 instead of 3 hit points.
And on low levels, I'd say you're less likely to get killed. The risk of getting that 18 vs. 3 situation is about as likely as getting hit by a critical hit (considering 50% chance of confirming threat) with an orcish spear, that's 3d8+12 damage (average 25.5 damage), and 25 damage is far more likely to take out a 2nd-level fighter in RAW than 21 (1d8+18) is in GnG (supposing the defense 3+x and attack roll 18+x), especially since any character focusing on melee should have at least 4 soak. For higher level chars in D&D, the orc stops being a serious threat, partly since players have high AC stopping the confirmation of the threat and partly because an orc has 5 hit points. GnG makes the orc always stay a threat, and that isn't a flaw with the system - it's part of the point of the system. The players will advance with levels, becoming stronger and stronger, but the level itself becomes a less bit important - other rewards will be handed out instead, such as high-quality items and not to be underestimated, things like land or power within a guild and such things.
[/sblock]

tl;dr:
I think the mistake you make is assuming that combat will follow the same pattern as in regular D&D with a few PC's pitched against a horde of lame-ass kobolds or against a giant dragon. Most combats here will be the PC's against a few other humanoids, sometimes more and sometimes less than the PC's. Monsters are special encounters that should be feared by the player, and if an ogre comes along you usually run rather than face it if you don't have to, even if you're level 4. It's a very unecessary risk that might not be worth the gold necklace it wears. If you don't like risking death when in close combat, play a character that doesn't frequent the front lines. Also, if you like high-powered, combat heavy, rolePLAYING, this might be the wrong campaign for you quite frankly. Not saying this in a negative way at all, I also like to rolePLAY sometimes, but it's just not that sort of campaign.
 
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wysiwyg

First Post
Even a 1/40 chance of dying (when not doing something foolish) is a too high a probability imho. Consider that each encounter takes an average 8 rounds. Sometime within 5 encounters a PC, who isn’t rash, is likely to die (or at best be out of commission for a very long time). I don’t want to play a PC who always has to run away to avoid confrontations – even in situations where the odds are in his favour – just to survive. I'm assuming that most players would like to play hero-style PCs (not the super-heroe type) instead of the cowardly hide-hit-run away style.

The game definitely caters for more realism than standard D&D. In real life, a soldier in any combat situation, no matter how seasoned or tough, is always in grave mortal danger. Even a veteran would not want to enter the fray and would likely surrender instead of facing superior numbers (or get shot to smithereens within seconds) – James Bond excluded of course.

In a fantasy game, where PCs would preferably survive, the natural rules have to bend. The question is: how much should they bend? Which scenarios should not be changed?

I am going on the following premises:
1. PCs can certainly die.
2. PCs will have a high probability of dying if they do something rash.
3. PCs should be allowed to survive if they don’t do something rash/foolish in order to maximize the player’s enjoyment of their PCs (it does take a bit of work making a PC, not to mention that players often tend to get attached to a PC they have invested a lot into).
4. The DM & the players have to all know in advance what they are in for as far as the above is concerned – just for the sake of avoiding frustration later.

So let’s say we wanted to eliminate ridiculous situations where overwhelming odds can be defeated – like 4 players storming the castle and taking on the whole army single handed. But on the other hand, I would not want to redo a new PC every few encounters.

All I’m saying is that we have to define what the game will be like, and ensure that the game rules allow this to happen. After we have done that, players can decide whether this is the game for them or not.
 

wysiwyg

First Post
Just to show that I'm a good sport - I'd like to try out in any event. Worse come to worse, we'll get a divorce (once you kill my PC). ;)

I'll work on a PC skleleton and post him for your review soon.

Would you allow the following 2 feats from Player's Guide to Faerun (both must be chosen at 1st level):

Disciplined - Benefit: +2 Will, +2 Concentration
Luck of Heroes - Benefit: +1 Saves, +1 AC
 
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wysiwyg

First Post
Here's what I had in mind (skeleton version). More will be done later.

[sblock]
Human, 2nd Level Warblade
Str: 15, Dex: 16, Con: 14, Int: 12, Wis: 8, Cha: 10


Soak: 5 = 2(Con) +3(Armor)
Defense: +7* = +2(DB) +3(Dex) +2(Shield) + 0(Other)
* +9 when using Stance of Clarity


Attack Modifiers: +5 = +2(BAB) +3(Dex)
Touch Attack Modifiers: +9
Longsword +6 (1d8+2) - Weapon Focus


Abilities
Battle Clarity - Int mod bonus to Reflex
Weapon Aptitude
Uncanny Dodge

Maneuvers (known 4/ *readied 3)
*Moment of Perfect Mind (Counter) - Use Concentration check in place of Will save
*(Iron) Steel Wind (Strike) - Attack two opponents
*(Diam) Sappire Nightmare Blade (Strike) - Concentration check vs AC of foe's AC. Success: Opponent flat-footed, +1d6 damage.
(Stone) Stone Bones (Strike) - Gain DR 5/adamantine

Stances (1)
Stance of Clarity - Gain +2AC vs one foe, -2 against all others.


Skills
Class Skills: 30 = 4(class) +1(int) +1(human) x5
Concentration +12 = 5(ranks) +2(Con) +3(skill focus) +2(Disciplined)
Climb +7 = 5(ranks) +2(Str)
Balance +8 = 5(ranks) +3(Dex)
Jump +10 = 5(ranks) +2(Str)
Swim +7 = 5(ranks) +2(Str)
Knowledge (local) +6 = 5(ranks) +2(Int)


Feats
Bonus: Skill focus (Concentration)
Human: Weapon Focus (Longsword)
Lvl 1: Disciplined


Saves
Fort: +6 = +3(base) +2(Con)
Reflex: +4 = +0(base) +3(Dex) +1(battle clarity)
Will: +1* = +0(base) -1(Wis) +2(Disciplined)
*+12 when using Moment of perfect mind

Wealth & Equipement
Initial Wealth 75sp
Longsword 15sp
Spear 2sp (1d8, 20 ft, 6lb)
Studded leather 25sp (-1 ACP , 20lb)
Shield, heavy wooden 7sp (-2 ACP, 15lb)
Backpack 2sp (2lb)
Bedroll 1cp (5lb)
Blanket, winter 5sp* (3lb)
Fishhook 1cp
Flint & steel 1sp
Oil 1cp(1-pint flask) (1lb)
Pot, iron 5cp (10lb)
Pouch, belt 1sp (0.5)
Rations 1.5sp (3days) (3lb)
Soap 5cp (1lb)
Waterskin 1sp (4lb)
Donkey 8sp
Saddlebags 4sp (8b)
5sp, 7cp left
[/sblock]
 

doghead

thotd
I couldn't resist the temptation - I drew up an Aristocrat. Heavy on the social skills. Not completely hopeless in a fight.

[sblock=Aristocrat 2]

S14, D12, C11, I13, W10, C15.

BAB: +1
- Melee Attack +3
- Range Attack +2
- Defence +2
- Soak 4
Skills:
- Bluff 09 [5 ranks, +2 Cha, +2 feat]
- Diplomacy 14 [5 ranks, +2 Cha, +5 feat, +2 syn]
- Gather Information 08 [4 ranks, +2 Cha, +2 syn]
- Intimidate 10 [4 ranks, +2 Cha, +2 feat, +2 syn]
- Knowledge (local) 06 [5 ranks, +1 Int]
- Sense Motive 09 [4 Ranks, +5 feat, +0 Wis]
- Speak Language 2 - (Thalaska)
- Speak Language 1 - (Elvan)
Feats:
- Contacts
- Negotiator
- Persuasive
- Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
- Skill Focus (Sense Motive)
Saves:
- Reflex +1
- Fortitude +0
- Willpower +3
Equipment
- longsword (+3, 1d8, 8+/+0)
- crossbow (+2, 1d8, 8+/+0, 80 ft.)
- chain shirt (soak 4, ACP -2)[/sblock]
 
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Ilja

First Post
We'll simply see how you fare in combat Wysi :3 I think you'll do well.

Both chars look fine to me, though I'm interested in seeing character bios :3
Just one detail, dogtail: You get negotiator or persuasive as bonus feats at level 1, not both.
 

wysiwyg

First Post
Just one detail, dogtail: You get negotiator or persuasive as bonus feats at level 1, not both.

I can answer that one for you:
Aristocrat Feats: Contacts, Negotiator
Human Bonus Feat: Persuasive
1st Level Feat: Skill Focus (Diplomacy)
Bonus Skill Focus Feat: (Sense Motive)

I think there is one mistake on the PC though. According to GnG rules Dex is used instead of Str for attack bonuses (even for melee). As such, his melee AB should be +2 (longsword as well).
 

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