D&D General The Tyranny of Rarity

Status
Not open for further replies.

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
I mean.

Two of the secondary drivers for race creation is the lack of variation and options in settings with few races and the boredom of constantly using the same races.
If playing the same few species all the time becomes boring that's a player issue, not a DM one*.

My advice, grain of salt included for free, is to try doing something different - and I mean really different - with each new Human PC you play. Bring some gonzo. And then whatever you're doing, dial it up to eleven and overplay the hell out of it. Go for entertainment (and laughs, where such make sense) first, ahead of in-game efficiency or optimization (though if you can achieve both at once you've really got a winner).

* - the exception is that it's a DM issue if you're starting new campaigns with new characters way too often and don't have time to sink your teeth into any one of them.
They are a lot of uncreative DMs who design the same setting with the same races and no twists nor depth.
And a lot of uncreative players whose characters might as well be made of cardboard. Creativity is a two-way street. :)
 

log in or register to remove this ad

Actually the cape does exist now, it's a common magical item so I guess that's okay. :)

But you're dodging the question. The rules for what they want do not exist. What do you do? Because every DM I've ever had at times says "no". I try to say "No, but here's what we can do" after getting details and clarification on what they are attempting.

It's not too difficult to say no to someone if what they want doesn't exist in a book. It's harder for options that are in the PHB like Tieflings and Dragonborn.

But, if someone really wanted to make a half dragon/ half vampire, you could choose a mix of features from Dragonborn and Dhampir easily enough.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Does Cure Wounds work on wood ?
Funny - this exact question came up the other night in our game when a Druid tried to cure a damaged tree.

End result was that it worked, but took more powerful cures than the basic 1st-level variety.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
To quote Phlogiston Calx, my warforged wizard (Transmuter) - "Why of course healing magic will work on me! Were you of the mistaken position that it has anything to do with the materials of which the body is composed? As if the magic knows the construction of tissues when you do not? Nonsense! Healing magics enter the body through the Spirit (or "soul" as some might call it), and brings the body to wholeness in a holistic manner, based on the Spiritual pattern present. My alchemical core would be inactive except for the present of Spirit bound to it, producing the same effect as for you who are born with them...."
Ye gods - by the time Phlogiston had got through half of that long-winded bombast my Cleric would have already left him to it and gone down to the pub for a beer... :)
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Sure, I thought I mentioned this by "evil deeds people don't want to play out"...it's a matter of the content of the game and what some may consider questionable. That kind of thing is, in my opinion, important, so I don't have a problem with that at all.

So let's say I was starting a new campaign and was perfectly fine with allowing evil PCs, and then one of my players said that they weren't really down with that. I'd almost certainly add the restriction for that game.
And if another player had joined the game specifically because you were allowing evil PCs where so many other DMs weren't, what then?

Never mind that it should never have got to this point in the first place. During your initial campaign pitch when recruiting players is the time to mention that when it comes to PC alignment it's "anything goes", and if a player's not cool with that then no invite for that player.
 

Lanefan

Victoria Rules
Okay. So what does it mean? If I'm so incorrect, educate me rather than mocking me.

Because, despite saying what you've said here, you seem pretty clearly to me to be saying "when the DM says something, you as a player should put up, shut up, or get up."

So. What does the buck stopping with the DM mean? What message am I supposed to get from this other than submission to DM authority whenever any disagreement occurs?
Who else has the final say, then, if not the DM?

It has to be someone. Not the group, not consensus, but someONE; as - speaking from experience both in and out of RPGing - having a single final-word authority to fall back on when other means of resolution have failed is the only way these things can work and remain sustainable.
 

Minigiant

Legend
Supporter
If playing the same few species all the time becomes boring that's a player issue, not a DM one*.

My advice, grain of salt included for free, is to try doing something different - and I mean really different - with each new Human PC you play. Bring some gonzo. And then whatever you're doing, dial it up to eleven and overplay the hell out of it. Go for entertainment (and laughs, where such make sense) first, ahead of in-game efficiency or optimization (though if you can achieve both at once you've really got a winner).

* - the exception is that it's a DM issue if you're starting new campaigns with new characters way too often and don't have time to sink your teeth into any one of them.
Sure. If your DM okays your character's gonzo build or personality.

Remember the DM has final say.

And a lot of uncreative players whose characters might as well be made of cardboard. Creativity is a two-way street.
I've never head of a DM banning a uncreative PC if they follow the setting lore and the campaign's rules.

That's the rub. Because the DM has the final say, an uncreative DM is a bigger negative than an uncreative player.
 

DND_Reborn

The High Aldwin
For me, it's two things.

One, many of the folks who talk about restricting (or, quite commonly, "banning"--some even do so rather gleefully) explicitly say they've done so for ages and ages, like 20+ years, and then append that with something like "and I've never seen any reason to change" or "and I've had lots of fun with that" or whatever. So it seems only appropriate to say, "hey, I've had a lot of fun doing things the opposite of that, maybe give it a try?"

Two, I very rarely get the impression from proudly "traditionalist" gamers that they ever really have considered other ways. They often (not always, but often) speak in incredibly dismissive, even uncharitable phrasing (like "Star Wars cantina on feet" or other ways of expressing how yucky and weird physiological diversity must be). They often (not always, but often) react with rather a lot of hostility to alternative approaches, even when suggested in very mild ways, such as a thread I made a while back advocating that random, irrevocable permadeath is a really pretty dull motivator and that others are much more effective...and then had easily a dozen people accuse me of wanting to strip all value and challenge out of the game e.g. "Oh so the players just win all the time forever? How boring!"

Perhaps I am uncharitable generalizing. It wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last. But I have in general found that there's a scornful attitude toward things with insufficient pedigree (which of course makes a catch-22: You can't get the pedigree without use and representation, and you won't get any representation until you meet the pedigree requirement) or that are "too weird" or whatever. Hell, at least one designer of D&D itself make jokes like this, back during the Next playtest. He openly joked about how he couldn't understand how anyone would want to play dragonborn, with how weird and non-traditional they are, but that he'd very slowly warmed up from "nope, you can't play one in my games" to "well okay, if you really like this weird thing I guess you can play it," and very clearly presented this as a magnanimous and significant shift.

So...yeah. I do get some amount of impression that a lot of "traditionalist" DMs haven't tried, and maybe even haven't considered, these other approaches.
I think this is a fairly accurate and honest assessment. I think the bolded part included me. :) So, here is some more honesty right back at ya:

Trying new things might be fun but they might be horrible. My gaming time, either as DM (95%) or Player (5%) is precious to me, yes, I'll insert the mental picture for us all...

1641255885717.png


I know most players enjoy D&D and just wanna have fun. I want to have fun, too, of course, but when I play I am also SERIOUS about it. Off-beat shenanigans, rampant silliness, etc. is NOT my idea of fun. I am here to enjoy the adventure! Yes, some joking is perfectly fine, but over-the-top fantasy is not my cup of tea. If players are dragging their feet I tell them to move it.

As a DM, I have out-right kicked out players, sent them packing, not even let them IN THE DOOR (repeatedly late) if their brand of fun detracts from mine. Once, I actually tore up a player's character sheet when the PC died!!! (granted, that was 30 years ago...) Call me a tyrant of a DM if you will and I'll own it. My game, my rules, I am in charge when I DM. When you DM, your game, your rules, you are in charge.

I've let players play races (Lizardfolk, Warforged, Half-Dragon, Tortles, and many more) which to me just made the game more annoying to play. In my game, if you want to be a half-vampire half-dragon or whatever, your PC will experience hostility by a lot of the NPCs you encounter, or you will be treated with outright fear and loathing. You will not be accepted and will have to work to ever gain the trust and respect of most NPCs. You can play a monster trying to make it and be a hero, but it won't be easy. FWIW, I have had a few players who accepted it, wanted the challenge, and did go on to make a difference in the game world.

I also don't allow evil alignments. I find it abhorrent and distasteful. D&D (for me) is about heroics and defeating evil. Dishonest, selfish, etc. I can deal with, but not evil. I've tried it, and it just brought out the worst in the player IMO.

So, because I put in so much time and dedication to the game and play it seriously (we have 10+ hour sessions normally), I expect my players to do the same. If I feel a player doesn't know their PC or isn't prepared, I give them a warning and put them on the clock. I tell them "Learn the game or don't bother playing" -- you should know, at the very least, your own character and what they can do. (To be clear, I am fine with taking a moment to look up or double-check something as long as it doesn't become commonplace.)

You have plenty of hobbies and past times which people can play more leisurely (D&D included!) if you will, but I take my game seriously and have too little free time in general to waste it on players who want to play a race I feel simply doesn't belong in the game. I would rather play with someone who shares a common vision of the game in mind than a player I feel I have to make allowances for over and over again. I'm sure it is as frustrating to the player as it is to myself, and encourage them to find another group which shares their vision.

That should be enough honesty for the time being. Now I'll head back into the recesses of the back-and-forth of the thread... :cool:
 

hawkeyefan

Legend
And if another player had joined the game specifically because you were allowing evil PCs where so many other DMs weren't, what then?

Well that’s why I said “almost certainly”. If another player had already created an evil character, or expressed interest in an evil character, then we’d all discuss the best way forward. I’d find out what the issue was for the one player, and to make sure it wouldn’t be an issue for the character played by the other player.

My point, though, was to again explain that it’s not really restriction of content that I’ve been talking about.

Never mind that it should never have got to this point in the first place. During your initial campaign pitch when recruiting players is the time to mention that when it comes to PC alignment it's "anything goes", and if a player's not cool with that then no invite for that player.

I don’t recruit players, generally speaking. I have a group of friends who enjoy RPGs and so those are the folks I game with. Every game I run is intended for them, and because they’re my friends, I don’t want any of them to not be included.

I play in another game online with some friends, a different group of people entirely and although I don’t expect that any of them would ever have any kinds of issues with restrictions or content (barring extreme examples) I expect any game we play would be intended for all.
 

Oofta

Legend
For me, it's two things.

One, many of the folks who talk about restricting (or, quite commonly, "banning"--some even do so rather gleefully) explicitly say they've done so for ages and ages, like 20+ years, and then append that with something like "and I've never seen any reason to change" or "and I've had lots of fun with that" or whatever. So it seems only appropriate to say, "hey, I've had a lot of fun doing things the opposite of that, maybe give it a try?"

Two, I very rarely get the impression from proudly "traditionalist" gamers that they ever really have considered other ways. They often (not always, but often) speak in incredibly dismissive, even uncharitable phrasing (like "Star Wars cantina on feet" or other ways of expressing how yucky and weird physiological diversity must be). They often (not always, but often) react with rather a lot of hostility to alternative approaches, even when suggested in very mild ways, such as a thread I made a while back advocating that random, irrevocable permadeath is a really pretty dull motivator and that others are much more effective. I then had easily a dozen people accuse me of wanting to strip all value and challenge out of the game e.g. "Oh so the players just win all the time forever? How boring!"

Perhaps I am uncharitably generalizing. It wouldn't be the first time and it won't be the last. But I have in general found that there's a scornful attitude toward things with insufficient pedigree (which of course makes a catch-22: You can't get the pedigree without use and representation, and you won't get any representation until you meet the pedigree requirement) or that are "too weird" or whatever. Hell, at least one designer of D&D itself make jokes like this, back during the Next playtest. He openly joked about how he couldn't understand how anyone would want to play dragonborn, with how weird and non-traditional they are, but that he'd very slowly warmed up from "nope, you can't play one in my games" to "well okay, if you really like this weird thing I guess you can play it," and very clearly presented this as a magnanimous and significant shift.

So...yeah. I do get some amount of impression that a lot of "traditionalist" DMs haven't tried, and maybe even haven't considered, these other approaches.


I would take a slightly (but only slightly) more nuanced approach. That is, I'd consult with the group and try to reach a consensus. Perhaps the rest of the group was really excited to play evil characters, so adding that restriction would sap the group enthusiasm overall. Or perhaps the campaign premise kind of requires characters with legitimately unsavory pasts. Whatever the reason, it's quite possible to want to talk it out.

So we do so. Is it "I'm an abuse survivor so a lot of stereotypical 'evil' deeds dredge up painful memories I'd rather not think about while gaming"? The folks wanting to play evil might find that an acceptable reason to choose something else, or that answer might push me to look for a new campaign premise, etc. But it might also suggest that we talk out the boundaries and try to find something that is acceptable to all parties. Maybe "evil" is a cosmic label so you can be morally upstanding but because you're a necromancer (e.g. one inspired by the Abhorsen books) or a half-devil (e.g. Hellboy) you're "evil" by default. Or maybe everyone used to be hardcore evil, but they've begun to reform, and this is a tale about whether that journey is possible for the various characters. Maybe the campaign premise can be reworked for people wrongfully imprisoned. No one side has a unilateral "things happen my way" power, and all participants are free to decide that this can't actually be resolved and just needs to be abandoned (though I would hope they would all bring a good-faith effort to determine that rather than keeping a finger firmly on the big red button just waiting for a reason.)


I had not really gotten the impression, prior to this, that there was much listening to your players involved. That is, proposals made even in tangential hypothetical were met with (paraphrasing) "well I don't do that," without much room for discussion (and attempts to do so tended to then produce "well, I'm the DM, it's my job to make a final call and I've done so.") Perhaps you would face it much differently if one of your actual players had responded thus.

I, too, look for what the player is trying to accomplish, though I tend to be persuaded by "rule of cool" so long as the request does not depend on inducing other players to respond in specific ways (that is, the request must not be coercive), nor on acquiring an unfair or illegitimate advantage not otherwise available (that is, the request must not be exploitative). So if the player can sell me on it being neat or interesting or fun, I'm game, we'll figure something out. Like you, I don't run games for evil PCs, because I heavily doubt my ability to run an enjoyable game for them. Beyond that, though, I try very hard to avoid bright lines, because I am keenly aware of the limits of my ability to predict what the group will enjoy.

For the half-dragon half-vampire, honestly I find the billowy cape thing hilarious so i'd probably allow that element just because I can (and would have people comment on it regularly, e.g. "how is his cape billowing in an enclosed cellar...?") I follow Gygax's requirements for playing more extreme monstrous races: go for it, but you must grow into your power like anyone else does. Given the limit on evil characters, how does this half-vampire feed? How did they become a half-vampire? Are they weakened by something (perhaps having gone a long time without feeding on blood) and need to recover their strength? Is their body actually dead dead, or does the "half" part imply they're fully or partially alive? I'm cool with a mix of both, but that should (at least initially) come with some drawbacks or be more "worst of both worlds" than "best of both worlds" at first. Also, how does their draconic heritage affect them? Can they still use elemental breath or has it changed? Are they more humanoid with just a light touch if draconic elements (e.g. the 3.5e Spellscale race), heavily draconic (e.g. 4e Dragonborn), or somewhere in the middle? Moving from specifics to abstractions, why this specific combination? Is there a particular story they want to see play out, do they just think Castlevania and Skyrim are cool, or is it about mechanical advantages? Does it specifically need to be "the literal child of a dragon and a vampire" or could other origins or possibilities apply? Is the player okay with starting out pretty weak (as far as vampires and/or dragons are concerned) but having potential for some cool powers down the line? Are they willing to cede some control over backstory and relationships/history/past deeds to me, to enrich the experience of playing through the character's story? Are they okay with other players having similar open-ended potential even if those players choose more typical/traditional options? Etc.

As for the Flash tornado, well, what does that do? Is it powerful, or just cosmetic? On its face, the way you've phrased it, it sounds like a naked power grab, but I've no way of knowing how the original request was presented, nor how the person requesting it would have responded to questions. If the player is okay with this starting out as a weak or even purely cosmetic thing and then growing over time into something powerful, I have no innate objections. Sink enough resources into it and it could even become a truly fearsome ability. But if they just want to be able to fly and (effectively) give themselves time stop whenever they like then no, that will not be happening, because that's very clearly exploitative. Others have to work for that power, so this player should have to as well.
I'm not arguing about this any more. There are times a DM will, and should, say no. Sometimes there's a "no but". In other cases, just "no".

You do you.
 

Status
Not open for further replies.
Remove ads

Top